Richard Baker on Orcus and Deity Slaying

[WyzardWhately]

I wouldn't say it is out of the question for the eventual Deities and Demigods book to include rules for playing in the Immortal tier (31-40). BECMI did it after all, and the quoted article did say "last big adventure your characters have as mortal heroes".

I'd probably buy that. I've felt a certain incompleteness in those editions of the game that didn't include rules for apotheosis.

 

[DM_Blake]

I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread yet, so here's my plug for The Primal Order.

Find it, buy it, swear by it.

The short version:
This book takes a look at gods and offers rules for them that can be applied to any RPG. Basically, the same power that wizards use to cast a fireball, or mentalists use to read minds, or druids use to wildshape, etc., is all just a shadow of Primal magic. To use Primal magic, you need to be a Primal entity. How you become a Primal entity can vary, but typically for a guy to start out mortal (a PC of any usual D&D variety) then become Primal, he needs to receive a Primal infusion from some other Primal entity. This weakens the giver but strengthens the receiver - most Primal entities don't do this lightly.

Once you have Primal energy, you can tap into the raw power of the universe. You don't need spells, you don't need rituals. Your power is yours to bid as you see fit. You get some replenishable reserves (for simplicity, the reserve replenishes daily) and you get some base energy that doesn't replenish - ever. You can spend both kinds of energy, but spending your base becomes a slow road to suicide.

Primal energy is far more powerful than other kinds of energy. The simplest Primal Bolt would blast straight through a Prismatic Wall as if it wasn't even there, and the simplist Primal Shield would stop a Maximized Enlarged Meteor Swarm.

With Primal energy you can build things, destroy things, answer prayers of your faithful, etc. But since your reserves are limited, you need to spend your energy wisely. The most efficient use of Primal is to trickle it into other, simpler activities, such as using a normal human to lift a giant boulder and infusing his muscles with just enough Primal to get the job done - this uses less Primal energy than doing some sort of Primal Telekinesis to lift the same boulder.

You increase your Base and Daily Primal by gaining followers, building temples and shrines, gaining domains (e.g. being the God of Fire), gaining planes (e.g. being the god who rules the Plane of Fire) and you can take Primal from other entities by force, sucking the divine life out of them.

This book gives a very interesting set of rules to explain how to become Primal, how to use Primal energy, and how to exist and grow as a Primal entity.

It's a very fun read, and very easy to incorporate into just about any RPG. I have used it 3 times in 3 long epic campaigns in which players eventually gained some Primal energy, then had to figure out what to do with it, and had to face Primal entities that far transcend the stuff you find in any Monster Manual.

Great fun for all.

 

[EATherrian]

Not my cup of tea (statted gods and archfiends), but I can respect the 1e nostalgia of having PCs fighting them directly (and to be fair, I once let a PC suckerpunch the Oinoloth).

However, that said, giving the reason that greater gods don't just go kill Orcus as being that Grazzt or Demogorgon might be lurking around like a tagteam of The Million Dollar Man and Ultimate Warrior to help out Orcus's Andre the Giant?

I'm joking. Mostly. Kinda. The reasoning just doesn't work for me.

ASTROSLAM MMMMCMXXVIII - This year the Dead Dudes Orcus and Hades take on Team Lightning Zeus and Thor in an Admantite Cage Match hovering above the plane of Coordinate Opposition! The guest referee Asmodeus assures us that everything will be on the up and up and there is most certainly no horde of devils waiting to destroy the winners. Scouts honor. See it on Astravision for only 10 Astral Diamonds!

 

[ruleslawyer]

Not my cup of tea (statted gods and archfiends), but I can respect the 1e nostalgia of having PCs fighting them directly (and to be fair, I once let a PC suckerpunch the Oinoloth).

However, that said, giving the reason that greater gods don't just go kill Orcus as being that Grazzt or Demogorgon might be lurking around like a tagteam of The Million Dollar Man and Ultimate Warrior to help out Orcus's Andre the Giant?

I'm joking. Mostly. Kinda. The reasoning just doesn't work for me.

I'm thinking it's just probably Rich's off-the-cuff phraseology. What he's saying, in essence, is that the archfiends may be less powerful than the gods, but not so much less powerful that the gods can simply run roughshod over them for fear of either a) provoking an alliance between archfiends, which no single god would be able to defeat (archfiend x2 > deity); or b) provoking the intervention of a hostile deity, which again no single god would be able to defeat (archfiend + deity > deity). This is a sharp change from 3e (or at least BoVD/HotA) in which an officially-statted archfiend would be a mere speedbump for a true deity.

 

[nick012000]

I haven't seen it mentioned in this thread yet, so here's my plug for The Primal Order.

*snip way too long ad*

Words cannot express my undying hatred for you. Crappy third party supplements are annoying. I don't know whether your third party supplement is crappy, but odds are it is. Save for the occasional supplement released by WotC's ex-employees, almost all the stuff on the market is.

Now, I came into this thread looking for discussion about 4e, and found your spam for your crappy products. This is very annoying to me. It's little better than the viagra spam you get in your email. If anything, you've ensured I'll never buy your products.

 

[Dausuul]

Words cannot express my undying hatred for you. Crappy third party supplements are annoying. I don't know whether your third party supplement is crappy, but odds are it is. Save for the occasional supplement released by WotC's ex-employees, almost all the stuff on the market is.

Now, I came into this thread looking for discussion about 4e, and found your spam for your crappy products. This is very annoying to me. It's little better than the viagra spam you get in your email. If anything, you've ensured I'll never buy your products.

You'll never buy the products of the company that published The Primal Order?

Heh. Guess you'll never buy 4E then... it was published by Wizards of the Coast, way back in the day.

 

[WyzardWhately]

Words cannot express my undying hatred for you. Crappy third party supplements are annoying. I don't know whether your third party supplement is crappy, but odds are it is. Save for the occasional supplement released by WotC's ex-employees, almost all the stuff on the market is.

Now, I came into this thread looking for discussion about 4e, and found your spam for your crappy products. This is very annoying to me. It's little better than the viagra spam you get in your email. If anything, you've ensured I'll never buy your products.

Pathetic.

 

[nick012000]

You'll never buy the products of the company that published The Primal Order?

Heh. Guess you'll never buy 4E then... it was published by Wizards of the Coast, way back in the day.

What was it, a 2e product? I don't remember any WotC products by that name. Not for 3e, anyway.

 

[WyzardWhately]

What was it, a 2e product? I don't remember any WotC products by that name. Not for 3e, anyway.

It's exactly what he said it is. A product containing rules for deities, generically usable with most any RPG. I believe it was released before WotC bought out TSR, so it doesn't have any specific connection with D&D rules (although I would be unsurprised to find out that that was what most people used it for.)

 

[Desdichado]

What was it, a 2e product? I don't remember any WotC products by that name. Not for 3e, anyway.

That does it. I am MOVING Wizards' bookmark!