Rings of Power -- all opinions and spoilers welcome thread.

[Parmandur]

To quote the Big Lebowski, "That's just like your opinion man." You keep stating, again and again, that this "is" a 5-star show, like it is some ontological fact, when what you're really saying is that you love it, and you can't understand why others don't love it.

Now I will give you this: Many of those that are giving it 1 star are probably doing so because of anger and disappointment. But again, I don't see a lot of obvious trolling - that is conjecture on your part.

As I said, I would probably give it 2, maybe 2.5 stars. I can see why an un-critical viewer might give it 3, but given the obvious problems with the script, acting, and plotting, I think 4 is a stretch and requires someone to ignore or not care about what makes good film-making, or deep knowledge of Tolkien and his work. 5? Well, I suppose everything is loved by someone.

So I'll go back to my original point to you: The phenomena of the wide divergence of opinions about this show is interesting in itself. Your answer to that is, "The show is amazing, and anyone who doesn't think so is wrong or, worse, a troll." My answer is more like, "There's no accounting for taste, but I'm still baffled by how knowledgeable fans of Tolkien and/or discerning film fans can give it more than 3 stars, but if some love it, more power to them - my view of Tolkien and quality film-making is very, very different."

As for the critics, I'd say that implies a combination of being "ideologically driven" and/or paid by Amazon to write good reviews (which there's been some examples of). The weird thing is that RT doesn't actually show any of the critics reviews, which is fishy in and of itself...

I can well understand why someone might not love it, or even be frustrated by it. But a 1 star review is obviously driven by an agenda, not a good faith engagement with this art.

Someone can walk through the Louvre and sniff st the Mona Lisa, saying any child could do better. Doesn't mean that one can't be skeptical of that sort of hot take. And that's not saying that everyone has yo love the Mona Lisa, or any other work of art! But not all opinions are proffered in good faith.

From a film studies perspective, everything on screen is top notch. From a literary critical perspective (my field!), the writers achieve all of their goals and hit their thematic and emotional notes with style. From a Tolkien lore perspective, they either get things right or make intelligent changes that fit their own story respectfully.

Now, someone might not like all of that: quidcumque. But putting it in the same bucket as Plan 9 From Outer Space or Manos: The Hands of Fate and saying the showrunners don't know their craft or Tolkien? Questionable.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

The thing is, there really is all kinds.

There's 1-star reviews made by bigots, bots, haters, and trolls.

There's 1-star reviews made by Tolkien fans who will accept nothing less that word-for-word perfect translations of the "sacred" texts.

There's 1-star reviews made by Tolkien fans, who legitimately just didn't think the show was very good.

There's 1-star reviews by people who give 1-star reviews to anything they "don't like" no matter how mild their dislike is.

There's 5-star reviews by people who were blown away by how "amazing" the show was.

There's 5-star reviews by people who want to stick it to the haters.

There's 5-star reviews by people who give 5 stars to anything they like, no matter how mild they like it.

There's everyone in the middle who give it 2 to 4 stars. (IMO the more sensible people, not to knock any of you who give it 1 or 5 stars, for your own reasons).

The world's a complicated place. Blanket statements don't usually work very well.

 

[Mercurius]

@Parmandur, I think we've gone around in circles enough to know that we just massively disagree and aren't going to convince the other. You think it is high art, I think it is poor film-making. Etc, etc. I can only return to where I started: There's no accounting for taste."

 

[Maxperson]

I am a Tolkien fan, a big time and widely read one at that: I do not object to anything the writers have done for the sake of their own story.

So you're okay with sociopathic harfoots? And with Galadriel, one of the wisest elves in existence since before the Noldor left Aman, putting the freedom and survival of all of Middle Earth(including the elves) in danger because of her ego? With her single minded purpose of destroying Sauron just being dropped to the wayside once she finds him?

 

[Maxperson]

It will happen eventually, and Tings of Power actually makes me confidence a show could well improve on Jackson's take.

It has to reach Jackson's take first, and it's a looooooooong way away.

 

[Parmandur]

@Parmandur, I think we've gone around in circles enough to know that we just massively disagree and aren't going to convince the other. You think it is high art, I think it is poor film-making. Etc, etc. I can only return to where I started: There's no accounting for taste."

Well, there can be an accounting, with enough work put into it.

 

[Parmandur]

So you're okay with sociopathic harfoots? And with Galadriel, one of the wisest elves in existence since before the Noldor left Aman, putting the freedom and survival of all of Middle Earth(including the elves) in danger because of her ego? With her single minded purpose of destroying Sauron just being dropped to the wayside once she finds him?

The Harfoots are not sociopaths, they have a healthy relationship to death, I'm a Tolkienian sense. They are accepting of Iluvatar's Gift in precisely the opposite way of the clinging to life that will cause the downfall of Numenor. It's part of the chiasmus the writers are teeing up for the series.

The way you describe Galadriel in this post is precisely on-brand for the Noldor. At the end of this season, Galadriel goes for making the Three Rings as a way to fight Sauron, which is a mistake mirroring the tragic mistake at the beginning of the Season when the Noldor do a series of very wrong things to fight Morgoth: chiasmus, wirh the Eldar fallinf into the magic ring scheme the same way they fell into the war with Melkor in Berialand. She is not Tolkien's Galadriel, she is this show's Galadriel, but that's OK: and actually if you go and look at the writer's own breakdown, they have surprisingly good Chapter & Verse textual arguments for why they made Galadriel specifically this way grounded in the text of LotR itself.

 

[Parmandur]

It has to reach Jackson's take first, and it's a looooooooong way away.

Again, this show gets Tolkien right in a way Jackson just doesn't, such as pacing and vibe.

 

[Zardnaar]

The Harfoots are not sociopaths, they have a healthy relationship to death, I'm a Tolkienian sense. They are accepting of Iluvatar's Gift in precisely the opposite way of the clinging to life that will cause the downfall of Numenor. It's part of the chiasmus the writers are teeing up for the series.

The way you describe Galadriel in this post is precisely on-brand for the Noldor. At the end of this season, Galadriel goes for making the Three Rings as a way to fight Sauron, which is a mistake mirroring the tragic mistake at the beginning of the Season when the Noldor do a series of very wrong things to fight Morgoth: chiasmus, wirh the Eldar fallinf into the magic ring scheme the same way they fell into the war with Melkor in Berialand. She is not Tolkien's Galadriel, she is this show's Galadriel, but that's OK: and actually if you go and look at the writer's own breakdown, they have surprisingly good Chapter & Verse textual arguments for why they made Galadriel specifically this way grounded in the text of LotR itself.

Star Wars problem having to look beyond what's presented.

Shouldn't need explainations from writers breakdowns.

 

[Maxperson]

The Harfoots are not sociopaths, they have a healthy relationship to death, I'm a Tolkienian sense.

So healthy a relationship that when the daughter of a family messes up, they are all condemned to death and forced to lag behind. And when the sociopaths realize that they aren't dying, the contemplate going back and breaking their wheels to ensure death.

They are accepting of Iluvatar's Gift in precisely the opposite way of the clinging to life that will cause the downfall of Numenor. It's part of the chiasmus the writers are teeing up for the series.

Yes. Serial killers accept Eru's Gift in the same way!

The way you describe Galadriel in this post is precisely on-brand for the Noldor.

Not for the wise ones. For the unwise like Feanor and company, sure. She's also not exactly Noldor. Being Half-Vanyar(the highest and most noble elven subrace) she didn't have a lot of the weaknesses of the others.

At the end of this season, Galadriel goes for making the Three Rings as a way to fight Sauron, which is a mistake mirroring the tragic mistake at the beginning of the Season when the Noldor do a series of very wrong things to fight Morgoth: chiasmus, wirh the Eldar fallinf into the magic ring scheme the same way they fell into the war with Melkor in Berialand. She is not Tolkien's Galadriel, she is this show's Galadriel, but that's OK: and actually if you go and look at the writer's own breakdown, they have surprisingly good Chapter & Verse textual arguments for why they made Galadriel specifically this way grounded in the text of LotR itself.

Tolkien's Galadriel wouldn't have hesitated to reveal Morgoth to the others. But then this show isn't Tolkien, so this is par for the course.