Rise of Skywalker: The Seen It/Spoilers Thread
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GreyLord
Legend
So, I know I said I was going on vacation after I saw the film (and yes, that means I'm on vacation and even travelling soon) but I have some responses I wanted to make, not necessarily to this thread, but in general to comments I've been reading around the internet.
Now that I can hopefully speak openly about it and the movie itself (the media blackout is absolutely over now so no fears there).
I keep hearing people bewailing that Lucas was not involved, and that is true to a point. It is TRUE that this is the UNAPPROVED sequels to the rest of the Star Wars saga. It is true that this is even less approved at this point than the original EU. Lucas himself (I believe he was actually invited, vs. rumors he was not) I do not think was at the premiere.
That said, I think this is the CLOSEST you will ever get to seeing Lucas's actual ideas for a sequel to the Original Trilogy on the big screen. Kathleen Kennedy said it first...though she's been ignored greatly on it. The story stayed as it was. It changed no more (and perhaps a lot less) than ANY OTHER Hollywood production. Lucas had some ideas that changed in flux during the production, but the basic story line was there. Lucas chose Kennedy and company because they could deflect the heat from him. He had taken a LOT of criticism in the past over the prequels. If he had mad these same sequels he would not have been welcomed with open arms, and probably even ostracized and disliked even more. I think the basic story was his all along.
To put it in perspective. I've said this elsewhere, but I don't think anyone has paid heed. Feel free to broadcast this theory.
Many years ago a very reviled storyline came out called Dark Empire. In it the Emperor came back (this was after the return of the Jedi). Lucas is reportedly stated to have said that this storyline was the closest story of all the EU that came to what his ideas of the sequel trilogy would have been about.
In that light, it should surprise NO ONE what the sequel trilogy actually is about.
In addition, later Lucas DID have input to the EU. He said it was not HIS story, but it WAS an ALTERNATE story that happened in an alternate universe. He DID force or make changes to what others were doing in it. One of those was to dictate storylines regarding the children of Han and Leia. Han and Leia had three children in the EU. One of the children was supposed to die off in the New Jedi Order Storylines but Lucas said no. They could not kill him. He had a plan for that child and thus that child could not die at that time from what I understand. However, (I'm not so clear on this part) I believe he did have the other son die in that war.
The son that was not killed off at that time had an entire storyline about turning to the dark side, and becoming a basic Sith...
In the end, of course, it is not as clear as the movie, but it indicates that due to love he changes to a degree and tries to save (in the novels his daughter and love) the ones he loves.
Sound familiar...once again...it should.
What I'm saying, are these are storylines that Lucas had all along. It should surprise NO ONE that they would be in his story treatments as well.
People have been bemoaning about the sequels and how it would have been better if Lucas was in charge...
I'm not so sure. I think we'd have gotten something closer to the prequels in quality, but with a storyline very similar to what we have with the sequel trilogy. Sure, we'd have different names for Rey and Finn and Kylo, and there would be a brother and sister...etc...
But the basics would still be there. We'd still have Luke on an Island in self exile. We'd still have the son of Han and Leia turn to the dark side. We'd still have Rey trying to redeem him repeatedly (though she would be his sister instead of another which actually might have made a tad more sense). We'd still have a resurrected emperor...
What I'm saying, and not necessarily to this thread, but to many of those bemoaning Lucas not being involved more is...I feel we got the basic core storyline that Lucas submitted long ago. Iger, Kennedy, and others are getting the heat instead of him (big motivation for him to sell it too, so others could make it and get the heat).
It may not be approved with Lucas how it came out, but I think it is a LOT closer to how Lucas wrote his sequels than anything we've ever seen in the EU or elsewhere.
My thoughts on the actual movies will be in the next post (probably because this is long enough that for whatever reason I'm getting lag when I type).
Now that I can hopefully speak openly about it and the movie itself (the media blackout is absolutely over now so no fears there).
I keep hearing people bewailing that Lucas was not involved, and that is true to a point. It is TRUE that this is the UNAPPROVED sequels to the rest of the Star Wars saga. It is true that this is even less approved at this point than the original EU. Lucas himself (I believe he was actually invited, vs. rumors he was not) I do not think was at the premiere.
That said, I think this is the CLOSEST you will ever get to seeing Lucas's actual ideas for a sequel to the Original Trilogy on the big screen. Kathleen Kennedy said it first...though she's been ignored greatly on it. The story stayed as it was. It changed no more (and perhaps a lot less) than ANY OTHER Hollywood production. Lucas had some ideas that changed in flux during the production, but the basic story line was there. Lucas chose Kennedy and company because they could deflect the heat from him. He had taken a LOT of criticism in the past over the prequels. If he had mad these same sequels he would not have been welcomed with open arms, and probably even ostracized and disliked even more. I think the basic story was his all along.
To put it in perspective. I've said this elsewhere, but I don't think anyone has paid heed. Feel free to broadcast this theory.
Many years ago a very reviled storyline came out called Dark Empire. In it the Emperor came back (this was after the return of the Jedi). Lucas is reportedly stated to have said that this storyline was the closest story of all the EU that came to what his ideas of the sequel trilogy would have been about.
In that light, it should surprise NO ONE what the sequel trilogy actually is about.
In addition, later Lucas DID have input to the EU. He said it was not HIS story, but it WAS an ALTERNATE story that happened in an alternate universe. He DID force or make changes to what others were doing in it. One of those was to dictate storylines regarding the children of Han and Leia. Han and Leia had three children in the EU. One of the children was supposed to die off in the New Jedi Order Storylines but Lucas said no. They could not kill him. He had a plan for that child and thus that child could not die at that time from what I understand. However, (I'm not so clear on this part) I believe he did have the other son die in that war.
The son that was not killed off at that time had an entire storyline about turning to the dark side, and becoming a basic Sith...
In the end, of course, it is not as clear as the movie, but it indicates that due to love he changes to a degree and tries to save (in the novels his daughter and love) the ones he loves.
Sound familiar...once again...it should.
What I'm saying, are these are storylines that Lucas had all along. It should surprise NO ONE that they would be in his story treatments as well.
People have been bemoaning about the sequels and how it would have been better if Lucas was in charge...
I'm not so sure. I think we'd have gotten something closer to the prequels in quality, but with a storyline very similar to what we have with the sequel trilogy. Sure, we'd have different names for Rey and Finn and Kylo, and there would be a brother and sister...etc...
But the basics would still be there. We'd still have Luke on an Island in self exile. We'd still have the son of Han and Leia turn to the dark side. We'd still have Rey trying to redeem him repeatedly (though she would be his sister instead of another which actually might have made a tad more sense). We'd still have a resurrected emperor...
What I'm saying, and not necessarily to this thread, but to many of those bemoaning Lucas not being involved more is...I feel we got the basic core storyline that Lucas submitted long ago. Iger, Kennedy, and others are getting the heat instead of him (big motivation for him to sell it too, so others could make it and get the heat).
It may not be approved with Lucas how it came out, but I think it is a LOT closer to how Lucas wrote his sequels than anything we've ever seen in the EU or elsewhere.
My thoughts on the actual movies will be in the next post (probably because this is long enough that for whatever reason I'm getting lag when I type).
GreyLord
Legend
Okay, on the film itself.
I still think Rian's film was the better film, but the worst Star Wars movie. Rian Johnson's Film actually answers questions and though it may not fit with the greater storyline, is a more self contained film. Critics are absolutely RIGHT when they feel his film was the stronger film.
HOWEVER...Abrahms is a film maker right out of Lucas's heart. His films are all flash and bang. They move so quickly you don't have time to really think about the story or what's happening. However, when you think back on it, you realize there are a LOT of things that make no sense in the overarching story and are never explained. They have more holes than anything Johnson ever made.
BUT...they feel like Star Wars. Abrahms makes movies that FEEL like Lucas's Star Wars while I'm not sure Rian Johnson ever understood the property to begin with. Thus, if you want a movie that actually FEELS like a true star wars film, I'd say Abrahms is your guy.
In that light, this latest Star Wars movie FEELS like Star Wars. It is a GREAT Star Wars movie. It has many things that really have no explanation (for example, the emperor...he got electrocuted MORE in RotJ than this film, got thrown down a shaft of great distance, and then EXPLODED in the middle of Death Star II...and yet...here he is...in the flesh even if it is Zombie Palpatine) and on reflection make no sense (for example, another is suddenly they can return people from life, something NO JEDI OR SITH have ever been able to do, which is why Anakin turned to the dark side in the first place, Luke saw his father die, and Qui Gon died in front of Obi Wan). If Anakin could have done that it would have stopped the entire series in it's tracks.
But, despite that, it FEELS like a Star Wars movie. It has many things that it tries to repair from Johnson's treatment (for example, why they don't go about hyperspace ramming, or the growth of Poe and his ability to command, as well as the REAL reasons for Luke to go off by himself...which also involved Lando...and who Rey's parents really were and their heroism) that FEEL FAR more star wars in their approach than what Johnson did or perhaps was ever able to do.
So, in that light I'd say this is the BEST STAR WARS movie (but not necessarily the best film of the star wars films) in the sequel trilogy, and perhaps for the past 6 or 7 Star Wars films (depends on whether we include the Clone Wars animated film I suppose).
I think there may be enough angst on the internet that we are not going to see it do as well as it could (it should do better than TLJ if things were fair...at least as a Star Wars film)...but that's how things go sometimes.
I still think those that loved TLJ hopefully will love this one, those who hated it MIGHT hate this one (but if they loved TFA they may also love this one more...it has that Abrahms touch which is prevalent in TFA) and those on the fence...hard to predict (an awful lot of those).
If you like Star Wars...I'd say go see this one.
And now the REAL spoiler...it's been said this is the end of the Skywalker storyline, but in truth, it really is the END of the SITH/JEDI saga. It is the culmination of the Sith and Jedi conflict. After this there is no real need for the Jedi in regards to stopping the Sith anymore, as the Sith are truly and completely defeated. It is truly the Sith as one vs. the Entire Jedi Order, it is the culmination of their struggle.
It started before Skywalker, and it ends....well...after Skywalker and right as the Skywalkers get their beginning.
For if Palpatine made Anakin (as he hints in RotS) and can make Snoke, then they are his children as well. And as his children who do not carry his name are Skywalkers...one who rejects his last name probably justly also fits in with the last name of...Skywalker.
I still think Rian's film was the better film, but the worst Star Wars movie. Rian Johnson's Film actually answers questions and though it may not fit with the greater storyline, is a more self contained film. Critics are absolutely RIGHT when they feel his film was the stronger film.
HOWEVER...Abrahms is a film maker right out of Lucas's heart. His films are all flash and bang. They move so quickly you don't have time to really think about the story or what's happening. However, when you think back on it, you realize there are a LOT of things that make no sense in the overarching story and are never explained. They have more holes than anything Johnson ever made.
BUT...they feel like Star Wars. Abrahms makes movies that FEEL like Lucas's Star Wars while I'm not sure Rian Johnson ever understood the property to begin with. Thus, if you want a movie that actually FEELS like a true star wars film, I'd say Abrahms is your guy.
In that light, this latest Star Wars movie FEELS like Star Wars. It is a GREAT Star Wars movie. It has many things that really have no explanation (for example, the emperor...he got electrocuted MORE in RotJ than this film, got thrown down a shaft of great distance, and then EXPLODED in the middle of Death Star II...and yet...here he is...in the flesh even if it is Zombie Palpatine) and on reflection make no sense (for example, another is suddenly they can return people from life, something NO JEDI OR SITH have ever been able to do, which is why Anakin turned to the dark side in the first place, Luke saw his father die, and Qui Gon died in front of Obi Wan). If Anakin could have done that it would have stopped the entire series in it's tracks.
But, despite that, it FEELS like a Star Wars movie. It has many things that it tries to repair from Johnson's treatment (for example, why they don't go about hyperspace ramming, or the growth of Poe and his ability to command, as well as the REAL reasons for Luke to go off by himself...which also involved Lando...and who Rey's parents really were and their heroism) that FEEL FAR more star wars in their approach than what Johnson did or perhaps was ever able to do.
So, in that light I'd say this is the BEST STAR WARS movie (but not necessarily the best film of the star wars films) in the sequel trilogy, and perhaps for the past 6 or 7 Star Wars films (depends on whether we include the Clone Wars animated film I suppose).
I think there may be enough angst on the internet that we are not going to see it do as well as it could (it should do better than TLJ if things were fair...at least as a Star Wars film)...but that's how things go sometimes.
I still think those that loved TLJ hopefully will love this one, those who hated it MIGHT hate this one (but if they loved TFA they may also love this one more...it has that Abrahms touch which is prevalent in TFA) and those on the fence...hard to predict (an awful lot of those).
If you like Star Wars...I'd say go see this one.
And now the REAL spoiler...it's been said this is the end of the Skywalker storyline, but in truth, it really is the END of the SITH/JEDI saga. It is the culmination of the Sith and Jedi conflict. After this there is no real need for the Jedi in regards to stopping the Sith anymore, as the Sith are truly and completely defeated. It is truly the Sith as one vs. the Entire Jedi Order, it is the culmination of their struggle.
It started before Skywalker, and it ends....well...after Skywalker and right as the Skywalkers get their beginning.
For if Palpatine made Anakin (as he hints in RotS) and can make Snoke, then they are his children as well. And as his children who do not carry his name are Skywalkers...one who rejects his last name probably justly also fits in with the last name of...Skywalker.
Zardnaar
Legend
Things I liked.
Leia. Got to me twas sad.
They made an effort to explain alot.
Explanations could have been better but they made an effort
First 2/3rd if movie quite enjoyed.
Incredible visuals.
Fan service. Over did it a bit but it was fun seeing A-Wings.
Chewie death fake out
Rey's presentation. She used the dark side.
Kylos arc. Wish it ended a bit different. Siding with Reylo here feels bad man.
New 1st order general.
Leia. Got to me twas sad.
They made an effort to explain alot.
Explanations could have been better but they made an effort
First 2/3rd if movie quite enjoyed.
Incredible visuals.
Fan service. Over did it a bit but it was fun seeing A-Wings.
Chewie death fake out
Rey's presentation. She used the dark side.
Kylos arc. Wish it ended a bit different. Siding with Reylo here feels bad man.
New 1st order general.
trappedslider
Legend
I would have liked to have seen more of the Rey v Rey fight......otherwise I enjoyed it. The theater here offer four different cups: One normal cup that just had the movies title on it,a cup that looked like R2d2 and two cups that looked like light sabers, I got a red one.
Gradine
🏳️⚧️ (she/her) 🇵🇸
Didn't hate the parentage reveal nearly as much as I thought I would. Didn't like it, but then it's hard to fault a Star Wars movie for retconning parental information with "what I said was true, from a certain point of view." And they probably chose the best possible direction to go in that regard.
Part I hated the most: Tempted to go with Reylo kiss, but eh. However, and as much as I like the characters involved, you do not sneak a backdoor pilot into the last frakking movie in the Skywalker Saga. Jesus...
Also, they seriously couldn't let Finn get a chance to actually blurt it out? Seriously?
Oh, and sidelining Rose sucks. Probably the worst "concession" to the TLJ haters.
Also, Keri Russell should definitely be in more things.
Space battle action was a little disappointing, but that's just my own personal thing, and focusing more on it probably would have been a detriment to the character beats. Still.
Overall, I liked it. A lot more than I thought I would. It was Star Wars fun in a way the other sequel films weren't. Will probably be my least favorite of the three in retrospect, but that's pretty par for the course as far as the good trilogies go.
Will have more thoughts later
Part I hated the most: Tempted to go with Reylo kiss, but eh. However, and as much as I like the characters involved, you do not sneak a backdoor pilot into the last frakking movie in the Skywalker Saga. Jesus...
Also, they seriously couldn't let Finn get a chance to actually blurt it out? Seriously?
Oh, and sidelining Rose sucks. Probably the worst "concession" to the TLJ haters.
Also, Keri Russell should definitely be in more things.
Space battle action was a little disappointing, but that's just my own personal thing, and focusing more on it probably would have been a detriment to the character beats. Still.
Overall, I liked it. A lot more than I thought I would. It was Star Wars fun in a way the other sequel films weren't. Will probably be my least favorite of the three in retrospect, but that's pretty par for the course as far as the good trilogies go.
Will have more thoughts later
jonesy
A Wicked Kendragon
There was an idea formulating in my head that I didn't want to put out there until I'd slept on it first. As it hasn't gone away I have to write it down. I hope the following makes some sense.
I was thinking about what the problems I had with the movie were and it occurred to me that none of them are really about the movie itself. They are about the trilogy.
When I look back at the original trilogy and it's problems, all the various versions of the movies, the changes made, who shot first, how goofy that Vader V Kenobi fight really does looks like now, one thing always remains. It is a fully internally consistent trilogy. I can't think of the three movies as separate events because they fit so well together.
The same is true of the prequel trilogy. Whatever its problems the three movies are perfect for each other. It's a fully realized trilogy.
This isn't true for the third trilogy. The three movies are out of sync. The first one was pure fun fan service. A wild ride out into the world of Star Wars after a much too long wait. The second one now feels like a strange experiment into how far you can push the envelope before the fans break. What was the second movie even about, other than all of the characters on both sides having some kind of existential crises? And Rise is less about the other two as it is about the franchise as a whole and trying to gather all the loose threads into one whole Endgame. It doesn't feel like a trilogy to me. It feels like three different stories that only surficially relate to each other.
I was thinking about what the problems I had with the movie were and it occurred to me that none of them are really about the movie itself. They are about the trilogy.
When I look back at the original trilogy and it's problems, all the various versions of the movies, the changes made, who shot first, how goofy that Vader V Kenobi fight really does looks like now, one thing always remains. It is a fully internally consistent trilogy. I can't think of the three movies as separate events because they fit so well together.
The same is true of the prequel trilogy. Whatever its problems the three movies are perfect for each other. It's a fully realized trilogy.
This isn't true for the third trilogy. The three movies are out of sync. The first one was pure fun fan service. A wild ride out into the world of Star Wars after a much too long wait. The second one now feels like a strange experiment into how far you can push the envelope before the fans break. What was the second movie even about, other than all of the characters on both sides having some kind of existential crises? And Rise is less about the other two as it is about the franchise as a whole and trying to gather all the loose threads into one whole Endgame. It doesn't feel like a trilogy to me. It feels like three different stories that only surficially relate to each other.
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