[Ro3 5/15] Traits? lol wut?

[Andor]

At this point I don't want to assume anything, next week it could be different.

I'm just saying how many categories and subcategories do we need, as it stands now, you choose a Background, and within that Skills and Traits, and this is before Themes/Feats, seems a bit clunky.

Nope.

You pick a race: This gives you stat mods and racial abilties. Done.
You pick a Background: This gives you skills/traits. Done ,except maybe for picking languages.
You pick a Class: This gives you access to class systems. Done.
If your campaign is using themes, you pick a theme: This makes you Batman. Done.
Buy gear.

OR

You pick a race: Done.
You talk you GM into letting you make a custome background: This let's you build your own skill and trait list.
You pick a class: Done.
You talk you GM into letting you build your own theme: This allows you to build your own feat list.
Buy gear.

There are fewer choices then you think in the default model.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

I'm really intrigued. A background or theme acting as a sort of non-combat "class" -- a bundle of skills and traits that define that PC in interaction and exploration terms -- and the idea that the system is designed so practically any combination is possible -- that all sounds very exciting to me.

The design space opens up a lot, too. A fighter/Soldier is very different from a fighter/knight and very different from a fighter/scholar or fighter/alchemist. They're all figthers, but they're dramatically different characters.

In the past editions, backgrounds and themes have always been largely an afterthought, and were always far less important than class. If they are given equal footing, that might just be one of the most innovative changes in DDN.

I'm beginning to hope that they might seriously pursue a design that I've wanted since I learned that 3E was coming out. D&D has traditionally gone with a very few main design elements--then eventually had a long list in each element. You've got class--and then eventually a ton of classes. This is opposed to something like Hero System or GURPs or even RuneQuest where character building blocks are broken down into subatomic particles , so that you can build whatever you want. What I've wanted forever was for someone to do a thoughtful design that had several main design elements, and then keep the lists relatively short. (Everytime I mentioned making "culture" a third element to go with race and class, I had this kind of design in mind.)

It is precisely the combinations that emerge that make it so appealing. Sure, it's tricky to do. But hit the sweet spot right, and you've got a great mix of power, utility, and ease of use.

 

[Tom Servo]

We'll know in 2 weeks anyway.

Sort of. I really wish a character creation element was a part of the initial playtest. My players were pretty bummed out to hear they would be playing pre-gens.

Anyways, I liked what I read in this article.

 

[underfoot007ct]

I's all starting to sound a bit messy, so now after choosing race and class, you have to choose a background/skills, a theme/feats, and a trait.

I don't think this is true.

I believe it will be as easy as, pick your race & class; pick a background, which gives you some skills, pick a theme which gives you some feats, and traits will be explained in Two weeks, hopefully. Sound like a no-brainer to me.

 

[DEFCON 1]

What is interesting about Traits being a part of Backgrounds is that this might be exactly what some players were looking for... in terms of giving Backgrounds something extra so that they were worth more as a valid choice over players building ones themselves.

The argument was that a player-created Background or Theme will always be statistically better than a WotC-created Background or Theme, because players would min-max their creation, whereas WotC most likely would not. Thus the published B/Ts were useless options that would never see actual play. So they wanted something original and extra inside the B/Ts that you wouldn't actually get if you player-created your own. (Whether or not this feeling is actually true is obviously {and has been} up for debate.)

Traits might very well be that "extra" thing that published Backgrounds get, that for all we know, player-created Backgrounds might not. Or at the very least... is something that DMs who fall into that previous group could say to their players who want to create their own Backgrounds-- "You can make your own and get whatever skills you want... but you don't get any Traits (or less Traits) than a book one."

 

[grimslade]

Nice. People were worried about backgrounds just being a skill delivery system. Traits give out little non-combat perks. Very nice.

I wonder if we are going to see a couple of info drops in the next week to build buzz to the play test. I know there will not be character creation but we will be able to tell what went into the pre built core four. May the 24th here we come.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Traits might very well be that "extra" thing that published Backgrounds get, that for all we know, player-created Backgrounds might not. Or at the very least... is something that DMs who fall into that previous group could say to their players who want to create their own Backgrounds-- "You can make your own and get whatever skills you want... but you don't get any Traits (or less Traits) than a book one."

Heh, why not go the full-fledged Burning Wheel route on that one? In BW, any member of the group can make up their own content, but it has to be peer-reviewed before use. One of the hardest thing to evaluate is BW traits, because they can be all over the place. However, a key component is that a trait that is pushing the envelope automatically gets a significant cost added to it because it is pushing.

So do the same thing with themes and backgrounds. If the theme or background hangs together really well and isn't pushing anything, then it gets a good set of traits. If it starts pushing, it gets a weaker set of traits. Push really hard, no traits for you! This can be true equally of official or custom themes and backgrounds. No reason why the official writers can't let their inner powergamer have fun occasionally, as long as someone hits the final product with the "trait reality stick".

 

[dkyle]

What is interesting about Traits being a part of Backgrounds is that this might be exactly what some players were looking for... in terms of giving Backgrounds something extra so that they were worth more as a valid choice over players building ones themselves.

While I do think it is necessary that Themes and Backgrounds have something extra, that custom ones don't, it shouldn't be by making Traits exclusive to pre-built Backgrounds.

Based on that blog post 2 weeks ago, Traits are essentially the Interaction-pillar feats. A whole pillar shouldn't be the exclusive purview of pre-built Backgrounds.

Traits should just be feat-like entities that can be chosen, same as Skills. Custom backgrounds should just have a certain number of Traits and Skills that can be chosen (either a total, freely distributable between the two, or a set number of each). The pre-built Backgrounds should just be free to have more than that, if the designers want them to.

 

[hbarsquared]

While I do think it is necessary that Themes and Backgrounds have something extra, that custom ones don't, it shouldn't be by making Traits exclusive to pre-built Backgrounds.

...

The pre-built Backgrounds should just be free to have more than that, if the designers want them to.

I agree. Every option I see I would like to be transportable to a character that I design and build myself. One of my peeve's with the 4e Essentials line. If I wanted to switch out encounter spells, I had to go Mage, even though I preferred the original Wizard in all other respects.

If I see a feat/trait/skill in a prebuilt Background/Theme, I would like it to be an option for a Background/Theme that I build from the ground up.

I understand where people are coming from, the concept that the prebuilts will be "less optimized," especially as time goes on and more options are introduced. I would be okay with designer's "pumping them up" so to speak, but I think I'd be okay with them being perpetually un-optimized, as long as they are within a stone's throw.

Prebuilts are meant for beginners and people wanting to jump into a game quickly, anyway. PLUS, options can be switched out mid-Theme or mid-Background. You can go 10 levels with the Theme you picked at creation, then decide to pick a different feat or whatever at 11th level.

Yeah, I'm okay with how they sound, so far.

 

[nnms]

Now that the public playtest is getting closer and articles like this one and the wizard one are showing some more meat on their bones, I'm feeling better about D&DN than I did when it was all locked down with NDAs.

I like the idea of 4 or so major decision points to craft a character. Race, class, background, theme. Even if the PHB has only 4 of each, that's potentially 256 combinations before you make choices within those categories (depending on how much you do).

I also really like that non-combat feats and combat feats-- sorry, traits-- are getting separated and then you get some of both.

It also looks like it will be easy for the old school inclined to not include game elements they don't like. Only races allowed: Humans, elves, dwarves and halfings. Only classes allowed: Thief, Wizard, Cleric, Fighter. No backgrounds, no feats, no traits, no themes. Buy your gear and go. I bet characters would probably fit on an index card.