Rogue/Barbarian sneak attack while raging?

[Corwin the Confused]

I do not see anywhere in the PHB, DMG, "Song and Silence" or "Masters of the Wild" that specifically states whether a Rogue/Barbarian should be allowed to sneak attack while raging.

The Player Handbook says the following about sneak attack: "If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage. Basically anytime that a rogue's target would be denied his Dexterity bonus to AC or when the rogue flanks the target, the rogue deals extra damage… The rogue must be able to see the the target well enough to pick out a vital spot." (PHB, page 60)

In the PHB a barbarian "…while raging cannot use skills or abilities that require patience or concentration, such as moving silently or casting spells. (The only class skills he can't use while raging are Craft, Handle Animal, and Intiut Direction.) He can use any feat that he might have except for Expertise, item creation feats, metamagic feats and Skill Focus (if it is tied to a skill that requires patience and concentration)." PHB, page 25)

I would think that a rogue is "concentrating" on hitting a vital area during a sneak attack and would not be able to do so while raging. I would also think that a rogue would not be able to open locks while raging.

To push this example even further, lets consider the prestige class Frenzied Beserker. "When frenzied the character cannot use skills or abilities that require patience or concentration (such as Move Silently), nor can she cast spells, drink potions, activate magic items, or read scrolls. She can use any feat she has except Expertise, item creation feats, metamagic feats and Skill Focus in a skill that requires patience and concentration." (Masters of the Wild, page 60)

Should a Rogue/Barbarian/Frenzied Beserker, be allowed to sneak attack while in a rage and a frenzy?

Please let me know your thoughts.

Corwin the Confused

 

[Crothian]

It's not laid out either way, som best judgement is called. Personally, I think sneak attacks require to much concentration to be used while raging of frenzing.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Since sneak attack does not require patience or concentration, a rogue/barbarian should be able to make sneak attacks while raging. Note that the texts you quoted do not include sneak attack in their lists of prohibitions. Sneak attack depends on the opponent being flat-footed, flanked, or denied their dex bonus to AC, not the concentration of the attacker.

 

[Corwin the Confused]

Dr Zoom did you see this:

"…while raging cannot use skills or abilities that require patience or concentration, SUCH AS moving silently or casting spells."

The SUCH AS impies that their are more than these exapmles.

 

[MasterOfHeaven]

There have been several big debates on this. It basically comes down to preference. I personally allow Sneak Attacks while Raging. No reason to shaft Barbarians that multi-class into Rogue.

 

[Crothian]

The problem with this is it is the grey area. When anything that involves grey comes around people seem to be of two thoughts "Proove me it can happen" or "Proove me it cannot happen".

As I stated above, i don't think the two should be combined. In my opinion sneak attacks have to require some sort of concentration to use. Unfortunately nothing in the rules seems to really support this. In the sneak attack description it does require that you can reach the vulnerable spots as well as see them. As long as these conditions are meet it is assumed a sneak attack is done (of course while flanking or having opponent remove Dex bonus of course).

So, combine that with what rage says about not being able to anything require cincentratyion and you have your grey area.

 

[Corwin the Confused]

LOL, Crothian, I never thought I was in the Prove It Can Happen Camp, but I guess I am.

 

[Illuminae]

to Sneak attack is not to concentrate

The SUCH AS implies that their are more than these exapmles.

yes.

Did you pay attention to *what kind* of skills, or feats are prohibited?

The only class skills he can't use while raging are Craft, Handle Animal, and Intiut Direction. ...He can use any feat that he might have except for Expertise, item creation feats, metamagic feats and Skill Focus (if it is tied to a skill that requires patience and concentration)

If you take a closer look youll see that what they all have in common, be it a skill or a feat, is that they ARE NOT ofensive, or they take too much time.

1: move silently takes concentration, you have to walk slower to use it, and so does hide, etc.

2: open locks take time, more time than an attack, and so does craft, intuit direction, etc, and the metamagic feats, and yet the feats tied to these skills.
3:Expertise, is a combination of attack AND defense.
Now what is a sneak attack.

FIRST, from the perspective of the attacker: the attacker is ALWAYS trying to find the RIGHT SPOT to attack.

SECOND, from the perspective of the defnder: When someones is fighting for his life, he has his GUARD UP (using his DEX) to protect any vital spots that someone whos attacking him is trying to reach (in the case of a rogue, thats ALWAYS).

So, when someones gets its guard DOWN, THATS when a rogue finally reaches the SPOT.

So now youre going to ask: What does it have to do with my question?

The answer is 4 paragraphs up. A ROGUE DOESNT NEED MORE CONCENTRATION TO SNEAK ATTACK THAN TO MAKE A REGULAR ATTACK. BECAUSE HES *ALWAYS* TRYING TO SNEAK ATTACK. WHAT DIFFERS A REGULAR ATTACK FROM A SNEAK ATTACK IS THE GUARD OF THE DEFENDER. *NOT* THE ROGUE.
Someone who knows how to attack a vital spot will always try to do so. thats why a PURE ROGUE DOESNT NEED MORE TIME to sneak attack than to make a regular attack.

On the other hand, the assassin cant make a death attack, beacuse THAT needs extra concentration.

Hope it helped.

(Also, dont mind the CAPS LOCK thing, please, I dont mean to yell at anyone, im just too lazy to italicize or bold anything up)

 

[Corwin the Confused]

Illuminae,

I still think that sneak takes "concentration", so I am still in my camp, LOL.

 

[Illuminae]

Well, OK.

AUHEUHAEUAUEUAEUAHEUAHEUAH

Dont worry, someday you may see the light.