Rogue Mastermind Archetype Up, Courtesy of Extra Life

They stole my my help as a bonus action idea...

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Speaking of strawmen...

However, even if we added MOT to a battlemaster in exchange for say, their 3rd and 4th attack, it's not going to be powerful enough for most warlord fans. Because the warlord is the Ultimate Master of Tactics, so he must now be better at it than the rogue, just like how he must be better than the battlemaster.

...guess all Warlord fans took a level in Scarecrow. Not sure when I did that, but I really appreciate being dictated my interests and opinions.

Alternatively, instead of opponents squabbling about all the heinous awful horrible game-destroying things people want, we could focus the discussion differently.

What kind of trade-offs are involved in pumping Int instead of Dex?

Despite having few features that have an overt, obvious, direct, explicit benefit from Dex, is it true that Rogues can ignore it entirely and still succeed at Roguish Things?

What things could be done to balance a character--not just a Rogue, though given that this is a Rogue topic that would obviously be a good place to start--that depends on mental stats for certain aspects of combat, but not others?

Is it actually such a problem to have "mental" things that benefit from physical stats? We all know the example of Strength applying to Intimidate, but what about the others? Perhaps Dexterity applying to, I dunno, checks to locate information quickly within a particular context (a library written in a language the character understands, for example--hand-eye coordination could be useful), or Constitution to the maintenance or enhancement of spells (not just in the Blood Magic sense--after all, Concentration is a Constitution save!) or simply to concentrating on any particularly long and grueling task.

 

[Aldarc]

Really... because your whole point has been around combat optimization... and with high mental stats the character is already optimized for an area of non-combat... so exactly how is it a Strawman?

Again.. bounded accuracy means you don't need exceptionally high attributes to stay relevant... so if we're talking about those, we're talking optimization...

Because I have NOT argued that a character should be ultra-optimized in all areas for a minimal cost. That is not an argument I have made. That is a strawman of your construction. If you really want to argue about it, then I respectfully suggest that you read and, more importantly, listen to what I have been saying before inventing my arguments for me.

 

[Imaro]

Because I have NOT argued that a character should be ultra-optimized in all areas for a minimal cost. That is not an argument I have made. That is a strawman of your construction. If you really want to argue about it, then I respectfully suggest that you read and, more importantly, listen to what I have been saying before looking to find vaporous WMDs in my post.

I've heard what you said... someone whould be able to not only have a 20 in Int, Wis or Cha... but also be able to substitute that ability score for combat tasks as well (though to be totally accurate to the conversation they would be able to sub mental for physical)... and again the logical conclusion is that they are then ultra-optimized in more than one area for a minimal cost. If that's not what you're saying please explain where my assumptions are wrong as opposed to just claiming they are.

EDIT: And while we're talking about strawmen and inventing arguments... no where do I claim "in all areas"...

 

[Orlax]

Because I have NOT argued that a character should be ultra-optimized in all areas for a minimal cost. That is not an argument I have made. That is a strawman of your construction. If you really want to argue about it, then I respectfully suggest that you read and, more importantly, listen to what I have been saying before looking to find vaporous WMDs in my post.

That's what stat replacement (using strength in place of int, or int in place of strength) is. Greater optimization at a lower construction cost. Being able to dump strength while still hitting like the strongest person in the world because you are using int to swing is entirely greater optimization for lower construction cost. Sure you haven't suggested they be good at all the things all the time, but the core of your argument is greater and easier optimization with a reduced cost of construction.

 

[sidonunspa]

They stole my my help as a bonus action idea...

I feel the same way, as I'm currently working on a product to be published,,,,

thankfully, I worded it differently...

 

[Aldarc]

I've heard what you said... someone whould be able to not only have a 20 in Int, Wis or Cha... but also be able to substitute that ability score for combat tasks as well (though to be totally accurate to the conversation they would be able to sub mental for physical)... and again the logical conclusion is that they are then ultra-optimized in more than one area for a minimal cost. If that's not what you're saying please explain where my assumptions are wrong as opposed to just claiming they are.

I'll be a kind soul and post every post with you as of late, and you can see where you are mistaken:

A lot of that does not receive the same level of mechanical support or incentives as combat rules do. But if you are a rogue who invests too heavily in Int and Cha (as per being a mastermind), you are kinda screwing yourself and your party in the realm of combat, probably either on the Dex or Con end. I don't think that D&D simulates "theater of the mind" as well as other systems. D&D leans more on the heavier crunch side, at least in terms of other systems I enjoy (e.g. FATE, Cypher, etc.). I think you were having a similar conversation earlier, though I may be mistaken. So we may have to agree to disagree on this point and chalk it up to our different experiences and approaches to D&D.

I would say that the rules and mechanics of the game incentivize certain aspects of the game more heavily and regularly than others (i.e. combat). So it's not so much a matter of wanting to do everything well, but that sometimes the game discourages you from playing the sort of overall character you would like to play without being suboptimal in more a heavily-emphasized aspect of play that affects other PCs more measurably. This is to say, given the assumptions of 5e, in most cases, it's usually preferable that a character is optimized or sufficient for combat within the mechanical confines of their class, archetype, combat role, or what have you.

I mostly agree, but I also think it can be both, to be honest. A lot of D&D ventures towards the more mechanics of combat - baking them heavily in each class - as opposed to the mechanics of mental/social aspects, apart from skills. For a number of players I have GMed in D&D 3-5e, there can be a real conflict between "the sort of character my imagine encourages me to be" and "the sort of character the system mechanics encourage me to be." I think that the GM certainly can abate some of that effect or feeling, but I also believe that it's still there in portions of D&D.

Finished? See me advocating for stat substitution? No? That's because I haven't. I sympathize with mechanical/incentive issues that spur people to view stat substitution as an option, but I have NOT advocated for stat substitution. That goes for you too [MENTION=6801305]Orlax[/MENTION]. So no, Imaro, you have neither heard nor listened to what I said. I do not think that a rogue, for example, should be good at most areas. I have expressed concern that often the assumptions and mechanics of the game encourage rogue players to place their highest stat in the "mechanically optimal combat stat" as opposed to what we might regard as the "conceptually optimal character stat." And even earlier I expressed my vexation of "magic exceptionalism" with Orlax at how casters/mages often effectively have stat substitution for a lot of their abilities. That was not an appeal for stat substitution; I would actually prefer that were was a greater stat spread for mages too. I like the idea of forcing some wizard spells to require Dex to aim/hit or perform the magical gestures.

EDIT: And while we're talking about strawmen and inventing arguments... no where do I claim "in all areas"...

I meant 'numerous areas.'

 

[Remathilis]

...guess all Warlord fans took a level in Scarecrow. Not sure when I did that, but I really appreciate being dictated my interests and opinions.

My point is simply that even if you added the Mastermind, the Battlemaster, and the Valor Bard together and took only their best parts, you still wouldn't satisfy some warlord proponents.

 

[Hussar]

My point is simply that even if you added the Mastermind, the Battlemaster, and the Valor Bard together and took only their best parts, you still wouldn't satisfy some warlord proponents.

That's a bit of a shift of position from your original quote:

it's not going to be powerful enough for most warlord fans.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...p-Courtesy-of-Extra-Life/page22#ixzz3o1S1AHTU

Perhaps you'd have more success discussing points without painting with such a large brush?

Because your still trying to paint warlord fans as power happy munchkins who want to break the game.

 

[Remathilis]

Because your still trying to paint warlord fans as power happy munchkins who want to break the game.

One of the big things that gets tossed out when discussing the warlord is that the Battlemaster isn't enough. Not that it doesn't have enough maneuvers to use or that it doesn't grant enough superiority dice to use them often, but the powers themselves aren't good enough. They demand more powerful maneuvers or the ability to use them nearly at will. Its not enough to grant allow a PC to use a HD in combat, the warlord should add his Charisma as a bonus. Commander's Strike costs too much; it should only cost a reaction to use. There's 174 pages of that.

Are they all power happy munchkins? No. Does it seem like in the chase to emulate specific warlord abilities they often forget how to balance abilities in 5e? Very much so.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

My point is simply that even if you added the Mastermind, the Battlemaster, and the Valor Bard together and took only their best parts, you still wouldn't satisfy some warlord proponents.

if you gave the master of tactics, the battlemaster dice, and a bard's inspiration and you could use the bard inspiration to heal as a bonus action (roll that die and add your cha mod as hp regained) and put a second attack in at 6th or 7th level... that would be a great start... make it a d8 HD class prof with heavy armor and all weapons.

better still would be combine the inperation and battle master dice into 1 pool...