Rogue - Sneak Attack too strong?

[Saeviomagy]

With Sly Flourish having a high success rate, and the relative ease of getting combat advantage it seems like a Rogue can deal major damage.

Generally strikers do 200% or more of the damage of other characters per combat. If they only did the same damage as other characters, why would you bother playing one?

Your rogue buddy should be able to do that major damage most of the time he gets a swing in.

HOWEVER

He's very squishy, and in order to do that damage, he tends to expose himself heavily. There will be plenty of times where he's unwilling to get a flank because it exposes him to major hurt, or where he takes the flank and takes the hurting that goes with it too.

 

[Destil]

Having played several rogues, the squishyness is really a concern. I found I almost always ended up out of surges before anyone else in the party. Actually doping in combat with a good leader wasn't common, but I was often the limit of how long we could go before resting (and eventually retrained a feat to Durable at like 7th level).

 

[Turtlejay]

Thank goodness for the kind Dragonborn Paladins in the world! Well, before DP, when they still had Lay on Hands....

Jay

 

[KarinsDad]

Having played several rogues, the squishyness is really a concern. I found I almost always ended up out of surges before anyone else in the party. Actually doping in combat with a good leader wasn't common, but I was often the limit of how long we could go before resting (and eventually retrained a feat to Durable at like 7th level).

This.

In our group, the player of our Rogue got so frustrated getting hit so often that he stopped playing a Rogue at level 5. Course, we could not convince that player to let the Defenders and Leaders be up front and for him to gradually work his way into combat around a side, even if it meant a round of throwing his dagger and not getting sneak attack so that when he did get sneak attack, he wouldn't have a lot of foes around him. It seemed like it was often the Rogue surrounded out in the distance, flanking a foe with the Defender, as if the Rogue were point man.

 

[Dr_Sage]

This.

In our group, the player of our Rogue got so frustrated getting hit so often that he stopped playing a Rogue at level 5. Course, we could not convince that player to let the Defenders and Leaders be up front and for him to gradually work his way into combat around a side, even if it meant a round of throwing his dagger and not getting sneak attack so that when he did get sneak attack, he wouldn't have a lot of foes around him. It seemed like it was often the Rogue surrounded out in the distance, flanking a foe with the Defender, as if the Rogue were point man.

Agree.

The beauty of the rogues in general is that they have almost the highest damage output, but they do have to expose themselves a lot more. So basicaly, as a rogue, you can and should choose when to use your best attacks, and when to wait and lurk. Choices/variance = good things.

I must confess I am impressed with the scoundrel rogue - paladin combo of my party. When they both have the oportunity to stick togueder the monster have 2 choices:

1 - hit the "clothie" annoying human rogue, with (-2) for the mark, getting burn by the Divine Challenge, and also getting his "Riposte Strike" right in the face.

2 - hit the armored dragonborn palladin with no penalty.

Well, most of the time monsters go with option (2)...

I dont have issues with group battle formations, its way better than 3.X when every character had his own "solo" combos.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, there is always the option to play an Artful Dodger and up your ability to insinuate yourself into combat without getting hammered on quite as much. I agree rogues are a BIT squishy overall, but I think objectively less so than one might suspect. At level 7 the Brutal Scoundrel rogue in the group I DM has equal AC to the defender and the best NADs overall in the party. Her HP aren't astounding, but not bad either. It all depends on what you focus on. I think a lot of players aim too much for all-out offense. This character has TWD and Hide Proficiency. Maybe not doing ultra high damage but as a BS rogue with Back Stabber she's got a +14 to-hit and delivering 1d4+7+2d8 on basic attack with CA. Not winning any damage output contests at 19.5 DPH, but with Piercing Strike can target 2 different defenses and hits a LOT.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

AbdulAlhazred's post prompts a thought:

Hang back in combat, behind the main line or at most adjacent to the defender (you *do* have a defender in your party, right?)

On your turn, use Deft Strike to move up as part of your attack. After the attack is complete, move back behind the lines. You will take one or more OAs doing this, but for an OA-defense-optimised Artful Dodger, this might not be too bad, especially since one of the OAs may trigger Combat Challenge, Divine Challenge, Aegis of Shielding, or whatever applies. Add in the Harlequin Style feat to make the Deft Strike move = 3 squares, and you should be able to dash out for flanking and then retreat almost every turn.

Related question: Harlequin Style includes the text "Add your Charisma modifier to your defenses against opportunity attacks provoked by this movement." Would this mean that if you are an Artful Dodger Rogue, you would add your Charisma modifier *twice* to your defense against the OA? If so -- wow.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

AbdulAlhazred's post prompts a thought:

Hang back in combat, behind the main line or at most adjacent to the defender (you *do* have a defender in your party, right?)

On your turn, use Deft Strike to move up as part of your attack. After the attack is complete, move back behind the lines. You will take one or more OAs doing this, but for an OA-defense-optimised Artful Dodger, this might not be too bad, especially since one of the OAs may trigger Combat Challenge, Divine Challenge, Aegis of Shielding, or whatever applies. Add in the Harlequin Style feat to make the Deft Strike move = 3 squares, and you should be able to dash out for flanking and then retreat almost every turn.

Related question: Harlequin Style includes the text "Add your Charisma modifier to your defenses against opportunity attacks provoked by this movement." Would this mean that if you are an Artful Dodger Rogue, you would add your Charisma modifier *twice* to your defense against the OA? If so -- wow.

Yup, it would. hehe. ADs can be REALLY hard to hit with OAs. Be a halfling for even more extra goodness in that direction, lol.

Anyone actually had experience with the Ruthless Ruffian build?

 

[Destil]

I've played a brutal rogue with a few Rattling powers. The -2 attack penalties you hand out are pretty fantastic all around, add some area throwing powers like blinding barrage or cloud or steel and you're a really decent controller stand-in. I can see a mace being okay for low levels or if you really don't want to spend feats, but you'll often want to be using an at-will other than piercing strike, so I'd personally still go with a dagger/crossbow or spend a feat on a rapier.

I really wish the build let you use either Str or Cha for the bonus damage. It's based on a Cha skill, after all...

 

[Davachido]

Yup, it would. hehe. ADs can be REALLY hard to hit with OAs. Be a halfling for even more extra goodness in that direction, lol.

Anyone actually had experience with the Ruthless Ruffian build?

I've had experience with ruthless ruffian, and I think its a lovely build for in your face damage. It was a half-orc rogue with a mace wielding it 2 handed, Dex primary, Str secondary. Taking feats like power attack because the -2 to-hit really doesn't matter when a rogue already has lots of to-hit.

The best way to play one is making sure you take powers like adaptable flanker or some of the other ones that grant you CA through encounter utility so you don't need that much of the set up. Also though not required its best to make sure every ability you take is rattling to get that great synergy with ruthless ruffian base ability.

The build in a way is also great for helping out the defender by lowering the to-hit of the attackers even further and providing more status effects at later levels.