D&D 5E Rogue Starting Feat

[TrueBagelMan]

Seems like battlemaster would offer more than Samurai if you wanted to look at something other than champion.

The problem is that it’s melee only. (Extremely Dumb) We houseruled it where you pick ranged or melee and that’s what it affects. The problem with a lot of fighter subclasses is they are one of the 2 melee or ranged.

 

[FrogReaver]

The problem is that it’s melee only. (Extremely Dumb) We houseruled it where you pick ranged or melee and that’s what it affects. The problem with a lot of fighter subclasses is they are one of the 2 melee or ranged.

There comes a time when after offering repeated suggestions and having them get shot down because new information is provided every single time that either minimizes or invalidates the suggestion that it no longer makes sense to continue offering suggestions. IMO, you've simply not provided enough up front information about your character for anything I say to be of use to you.

Best of luck with your rogue. May you find him as fun as I did mine.

 

[Guest 6801328]

So I wrote some code to test this out. I ran straight rogue vs. both 1 and 3 level dip into Champion, for both bow and rapier, with and without booming blade.

I pumped out a lot of data; it will be some work to put it all into legible graphs so I haven't done that yet. But conclusions are largely as expected:

• At Tier 1 & 2 the dip is not worth it, because the increased crit doesn't balance the reduced Sneak Attack, plus the ASI delay leaves you with a lower Dex. At even rogue levels the difference is less, but it can be over 10% on the odd rogue levels.
• At Tier 3 & 4, when both builds have 20 Dex and the sneak attack dice are increasing, pretty much a toss-up, with a small advantage going one way or the other at odd/even levels.
• At levels 17-20, with Booming Blade, the dip has a pretty clear advantage. It's still about a tie on odd levels, but on even levels the dip...with all those sneak attack and booming blade dice to crit with...pulls ahead.
• Dipping for archers is never worth it. Trivantage already hits most of the time. And because you can't booming blade with archery, the crit is never as valuable as it is for melee.

Here's the data for level 20 with Booming Blade (which had the largest delta in favor of the dip)

Average damage per attack (N = 1,000) 20 rogue, vs. AC 10 to 20:
65.651, 65.392, 65.671, 65.064, 65.101, 65.364, 65.147, 64.154, 64.366, 62.338, 61.611

Same thing but rogue 20, champion 3:
69.235, 69.409, 70.624, 70.025, 69.273, 70.704, 69.253, 69.288, 67.516, 67.178, 67.437

What I find interesting is that the delta increases at higher ACs: I assume because if you do hit it's more likely to be a crit. If I went beyond AC 20 I bet we'd see that gap widen.

Anyway, I think the conclusion is pretty clear: don't dip, and if the campaign goes on so long that you think you'll reach 20, put the last 3 levels into champion.

 

[FrogReaver]

So I wrote some code to test this out. I ran straight rogue vs. both 1 and 3 level dip into Champion, for both bow and rapier, with and without booming blade.

I pumped out a lot of data; it will be some work to put it all into legible graphs so I haven't done that yet. But conclusions are largely as expected:

• At Tier 1 & 2 the dip is not worth it, because the increased crit doesn't balance the reduced Sneak Attack, plus the ASI delay leaves you with a lower Dex. At even rogue levels the difference is less, but it can be over 10% on the odd rogue levels.
• At Tier 3 & 4, when both builds have 20 Dex and the sneak attack dice are increasing, pretty much a toss-up, with a small advantage going one way or the other at odd/even levels.
• At levels 17-20, with Booming Blade, the dip has a pretty clear advantage. It's still about a tie on odd levels, but on even levels the dip...with all those sneak attack and booming blade dice to crit with...pulls ahead.
• Dipping for archers is never worth it. Trivantage already hits most of the time. And because you can't booming blade with archery, the crit is never as valuable as it is for melee.

Here's the data for level 20 with Booming Blade (which had the largest delta in favor of the dip)

Average damage per attack (N = 1,000) 20 rogue, vs. AC 10 to 20:
65.651, 65.392, 65.671, 65.064, 65.101, 65.364, 65.147, 64.154, 64.366, 62.338, 61.611

Same thing but rogue 20, champion 3:
69.235, 69.409, 70.624, 70.025, 69.273, 70.704, 69.253, 69.288, 67.516, 67.178, 67.437

What I find interesting is that the delta increases at higher ACs: I assume because if you do hit it's more likely to be a crit. If I went beyond AC 20 I bet we'd see that gap widen.

Anyway, I think the conclusion is pretty clear: don't dip, and if the campaign goes on so long that you think you'll reach 20, put the last 3 levels into champion.

Did you include action surges?

 

[Guest 6801328]

Did you include action surges?

Nope.

But neither did I try to model the lost ASI/Feat, or Stroke of Luck.

Only things that contribute to dpr every turn.

 

[FrogReaver]

Nope.

But neither did I try to model the lost ASI/Feat, or Stroke of Luck.

I'm not sure how the ASI/Feat would help damage by the time you get it?

Stroke of luck is a level 20 ability. I probably would have avoided it as well because of that - but I wouldn't have looked at level 20 in that case. If you are wanting to look at level 20 it's an ability that really should be factored in.

Only things that contribute to dpr every turn.

Which is fine if the question is: what is the maximum DPR a character can maintain throughout the day. The answer to that question is a very useful metric IMO.

But when the question is which character is more damaging - I'm pretty sure an analysis looking solely at the maximum DPR that a character can maintain throughout the day doesn't really answer that question.

I believe the question in this thread was about which build did more damage?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

The problem is that it’s melee only. (Extremely Dumb) We houseruled it where you pick ranged or melee and that’s what it affects. The problem with a lot of fighter subclasses is they are one of the 2 melee or ranged.

Battlemaster is most definitely not melee only.
Or are you saying that you houseruled it to be melee only?

 

[TrueBagelMan]

Battlemaster is most definitely not melee only.
Or are you saying that you houseruled it to be melee only?

The maneuvers that we’re melee only we made ranged variants. The problem I meant was there are no Battlemaster Maneuvers that are ranged only. I was not paying attention while I was typing.