D&D 5E Rogue Starting Feat

[TwoSix]

But that +2 isn't doubled on a crit. And even when I (erroneously) included +Dex and +2 for a magic weapon, it didn't move the needle much.

No, but it's still a value add to the possibility of taking 3 levels of Champion Fighter. Weighing the value of taking 3 levels of Fighter shouldn't be based purely on the crit-increasing aspect.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Swashbuckler doesnt have a 19-20 crit range.

No. I was doing the math on a 3-level dip into Champion. I happened to be doing it for a Swashbuckler build, but the Swashbuckler itself was irrelevant to this analysis (other than making it easier to get advantage) so I shouldn't have even mentioned it.

You're rocking a 26 percent chance of critting with tri-vantage and 19-20 crit.

As @TwoSix said, it's not the 26% that matters, it's the delta in crit due to the increased range. And that's a little less than 13%.

 

[Guest 6801328]

No, but it's still a value add to the possibility of taking 3 levels of Champion Fighter. Weighing the value of taking 3 levels of Fighter shouldn't be based purely on the crit-increasing aspect.

Yes, that's a good point. The OP was asking about archers, but for a melee build the +2 damage is significant, because you don't multiply it by 0.13.

The +2 attack bonus for archers is much less significant, assuming you usually get trivantage.

 

[TwoSix]

Yes, that's a good point. The OP was asking about archers, but for a melee build the +2 damage is significant, because you don't multiply it by 0.13.

The +2 attack bonus for archers is much less significant, assuming you usually get trivantage.

Agreed. Normally you'd want to jump over the archery fighting style, but crit-boosted sneak attacks with permanent tri-vantage is one of the few cases where it's not actually that big of a deal.

I think I might run the numbers on Champion 3/Rogue 7-8 compared to Rogue 10-11 with this setup just to see how close they are. I feel like the delta ends up pretty small.

Edit: Yea, it's about what you'd expect, less than 1 DPR difference between Rogue 10 and Champion 3/Rogue 7, assuming 20 Dex and enemies in 17-21 AC range. Fighter is slightly ahead at high AC due to Archery, Rogue is ahead lower AC. Rogue 11 is ahead of both, of course, but a F3/R8 (or F4/R7) can close the gap by taking Sharpshooter.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Edit: Yea, it's about what you'd expect, less than 1 DPR difference between Rogue 10 and Champion 3/Rogue 7, assuming 20 Dex and enemies in 17-21 AC range. Fighter is slightly ahead at high AC due to Archery, Rogue is ahead lower AC. Rogue 11 is ahead of both, of course, but a F3/R8 (or F4/R7) can close the gap by taking Sharpshooter.

Yup. So it really comes down to what you want to play. Do you want Second Wind, Action Surge, and rolling all those crit dice more often? Or do you want whatever rogue abilities you'd be missing out on? In your example, from 8-10 Rogue would get you:

1. An ASI/Feat
2. A subclass feature
3. Another ASI/Feat

Almost every time I consider multiclassing I do this analysis and end up sticking with single class.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yup. So it really comes down to what you want to play. Do you want Second Wind, Action Surge, and rolling all those crit dice more often? Or do you want whatever rogue abilities you'd be missing out on? In your example, from 8-10 Rogue would get you:

1. An ASI/Feat
2. A subclass feature
3. Another ASI/Feat

Almost every time I consider multiclassing I do this analysis and end up sticking with single class.

Action Surge will typically raise your daily damage by 10-20%. In terms of damage it's an important ability to account for. It seems that usually in these damage discussions it gets set off to the side as a good ability but never worked into the actual numbers.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Seriousness. Having it full of pillows makes sure that my familiar wouldn’t die in it from sharp objects and makes it seem like it’s full. I would keep all my junk like gold, silver, and currencies in there as well since they have no value.

I don't know how much your DM thinks about 'realism' (it is a fantasy game after all) but, keeping a bird of prey tucked in your bag that is full of pillows would..probably suffocate the animal? I mean, using an action, Summon Familiar lets you put it in its own pocket dimension any time you want. Why not just do that?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I think I can count the number of times I've had an engagement at over a few hundred feet or so on one hand in literally 35 years of roleplaying.

It's generally: 'As you open the door you see [monster]. It leaps to its feet, screams a war cry and attacks! Roll initiative.'

I have found that there is a pretty major split in terms of how much time groups spend indoors in dnd. Some groups almost never enter a dungeon, some are basically always in a dungeon, some only use fairly short dungeons, and only some of the time.

For my group, we have opportunities to start attacking from the maximum range of our capabilities fairly often. Not super often, but it definitely happens enough that feats like spell sniper are well worth it.

 

[TrueBagelMan]

What about other Fighter subclasses? Samurai allows you movement with the ability to gain advantage as a bonus action. Arcane Archer could do more damage and so on.

 

[FrogReaver]

What about other Fighter subclasses? Samurai allows you movement with the ability to gain advantage as a bonus action. Arcane Archer could do more damage and so on.

Seems like battlemaster would offer more than Samurai if you wanted to look at something other than champion.