Rogues and the Alarm Spell

[jgbrowning]

To me it's a trap because it functions as traps function. Any spell (like the permanent images example in DMG used to just confuse) that's functioning as a trap can be disarmed as a trap, even if it can't be disarmed when it's not functioning as a trap.

It's a rules gaff. Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

joe b.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I can fill in the blanks if that is really necessary.

The "secret" is to build a normal style trap but use Alarm as the first part, an automaton-like creature as the second part, and any standard dangerous effect like opening a canister of poison gas in the vicinity of the party. Heck, fill the whole frigging hallway 150' in all directions with poison -- that is a matter of NPC wealth, not rule mechanics.

Of course, it does not have to be a zombie. The zombie is just a simple example of a creature that approximates an automaton. It could be a permenant Unseen Servant, a tiny bound Elemental, a cheap golem, etc.

Notice I have picked creatures that could be bricked into the wall, save for a small listening hole. The listening hole could be down the hall and around the corner, so it is completely and totally out of sight.

Combat? Technically, yes, there is initiative before the bad effect goes off. Fat lot of good that will do you if you have no means of guessing what is coming.

Rogue Player: "I move cautiously down the hall. I use Search in every 5' I step. Once I Take 10. Then I just roll once."

DM: "As you proceed down the corridor, you can see it is 100' long and turns to the right. As you reach the middle, an Alarm spell goes off. It is undetectable by your Search skill, so I will not even roll."

All: "We run around like chickens with our heads cut off in an attempt to avoid the Non-trap that is about to happen to us!!!"

 

[Scion]

Isnt an alarm system attatched to a house effectively the same thing?

Who cares if the alarm sets up lasers to cut you down when triggered, or calls the police to come and shoot you. It was still triggered and something bad happened to you.

There doesnt seem to be any difference there. Something is sitting there, when tripped something bad happens. Sounds like a trap to me. The alarm spell awakes the party, that is something bad happening.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

All the trap spells listed in the core rules directly harm or affect the person who triggers it in someway. Your standard alarm spell does not. (An alarm spell used as the trigger for a trap is part of the trap, and I agree it should be possible to detect and disable it as part of disabling the trap.)

The rules in the DMG have glaring holes.

Forget about the Alarm spell for a moment.

If a trigger causes a 20' stone cube block to drop, blocking off all exits, and entombing the party for a thousand years, is that a trap?

If a glyph summons a balrog to eat you, is that a trap?

If the room slowly fills with water and drowns all who cannot swim, is that a trap?

None of these directly affect the party. All are classic D&D trap mechanisms.

 

[Caliban]

The rules in the DMG have glaring holes.

Forget about the Alarm spell for a moment.

If a trigger causes a 20' stone cube block to drop, blocking off all exits, and entombing the party for a thousand years, is that a trap?

If a glyph summons a balrog to eat you, is that a trap?


If the room slowly fills with water and drowns all who cannot swim, is that a trap?

None of these directly affect the party. All are classic D&D trap mechanisms.

They absolutely all directly affect the party.

They also have no resemblence to the Alarm spell.

If the alarm spell is part of a trap, the trap can be detected and disabled without triggering the alarm (or the alarm is triggered without activating the trap, whichever makes more sense for the situation).

But the alarm spell by itself does not operate as a trap. A trap does something to you, and alarm spell does not. It alerts someone else to your presence. That's alarms do, that's not what traps do (although many traps incorporate alarms into them).

An alarm does not catch you. An alarm does not impede your progress. An alarm does not cause any damage to you. A trap can do anyone of the above.

An alarm spell is not a trap, and it is not a device or glyph or rune or symbol that can be disabled. However, I don't see any problem with a rogue who is searching being able to detect the presence of the alarm without setting it off. (In fact, they have to be able to do this when an alarm is incorporated into a trap.)

 

[jgbrowning]

A string with bells on it is a trap that a rogue can disarm. An alarm spell is functionally no different.

joe b.

 

[Janos Audron]

A string with bells on it is a trap that a rogue can disarm. An alarm spell is functionally no different.

joe b.

Well, then I guess a powderkeg which does 10d6 fire damage in a 20 ft. spread and a Fireball are no different...

Oh, wait, there's SR, so to a Marilith, they are different.

Same with the string and bell: in one instance there is a string with a bell attached and the rogue can cut the string without triggering the bell sound. In the other case, there is nothing to see (string and bell are foci, which means they are not used up during casting, so they are on the caster's person once the spell has been cast), nothing to feel, smell, taste, touch or disarm...

 

[SkidAce]

A string with bells on it is a trap that a rogue can disarm. An alarm spell is functionally no different.

joe b.

But with an Alarm spell there is nothing there for the rogue to disarm. I see both sides of this conversation pretty well, I think.

However, I would not let rogues disarm or disable anything that did not have some physical component.

As an evil wizard, I devise this trap where the party will probably attempt to fly over a large pit. At the high point of flying over the pit I place an anti-magic field of some type. This is definately a trap. However, one of this type should not be able to be disarmed by the party rogue.

Yes, rogues can disarm magical traps. A trigger stone that shoots a fireball from the ceiling is definately something I want my rogue to find.

 

[jgbrowning]

Well, then I guess a powderkeg which does 10d6 fire damage in a 20 ft. spread and a Fireball are no different...

Oh, wait, there's SR, so to a Marilith, they are different.

The damage type is different, but the effect is the same. It could be a spring trap filled with silly string, or a bucket of water perched over a partly-open door.

Whether or not the trap is effective against any particular opponant isn't what I was addressing. The issue is whether or not they are both traps. If so, they can both be disarmed by a rogue, regardless of effect.

If they are not traps, (which has been the main argument so far, that alarm is not a trap), I'm interested in finding out the reasoning behind why a string of bells is a trap but an alarm spell isn't a trap.

Same with the string and bell: in one instance there is a string with a bell attached and the rogue can cut the string without triggering the bell sound. In the other case, there is nothing to see (string and bell are foci, which means they are not used up during casting, so they are on the caster's person once the spell has been cast), nothing to feel, smell, taste, touch or disarm...

If the rogue can disarm magic traps, he can disarm magic traps, even if we can't think of any way that such a thing can happen. Personally I see no reason why a rogue should be able to disarm anything magical to begin with, but they can. So I think rogues can disarm an alarm spell because the spell is used like a trap, just like a string of bells is a trap. Also, like how any damaging spell can be turned into a trap, ala lightning bolt trap.

joe b.

 

[BryonD]

But the alarm spell by itself does not operate as a trap. A trap does something to you, and alarm spell does not. It alerts someone else to your presence. That's alarms do, that's not what traps do (although many traps incorporate alarms into them).

An alarm does not catch you. An alarm does not impede your progress. An alarm does not cause any damage to you. A trap can do anyone of the above.

To me, this seems to say that whether or not the Rogue can find a tripwire is a function of what the trip wire is tied to at the other end. I don't see that.

Admittedly, this is a magic tripwire. But being as the rogue can find magic "tripwires", I don't see that as a very important distinction.

Edit: I guess I'm not doing anything more than repeating Joe.....