D&D 5E Rogue's Cunning Action to Hide: In Combat??

[Nefermandias]

At a specific level with a specific build under specific assumptions? You can "prove" just about anything. What @Mistwell was asking for was your math.

Besides, a fighter doesn't get 3 attacks until 13th level when most PCs never get that high according to the analysis we've been given.

First, a fighter gets it's second extra attack at lvl 11.

Second, I specifically talked about a fighter with access to feats in the post he quoted, so I don't see where you are getting at?

Third, I'm not talking about some obscure over specialized build, I just gave three very, very common options for any fighter in a game with feats.

 

[Oofta]

First, a fighter gets it's second extra attack at lvl 11.

Second, I specifically talked about a fighter with access to feats in the post he quoted, so I don't see where you are getting at?

Third, I'm not talking about some obscure over specialized build, I just gave three very, very common options for any fighter in a game with feats.

D'oh! Bad memory on extra attacks. But it still depends on a whole bunch of assumptions. GWM is great against lower ACs, doesn't really help against higher. Effect of action surges depends on number of encounters between rests.

Last but not least it's focusing 100% on DPR and, as usual with the spreadsheet calculations, ignores the defensive side of the equation. Being hidden, even if it's only on the enemy's turn, vastly improves a PC's survivability. If a fighter is focused on DPR it means they aren't using a shield for example. Those fighters are going to be front line and require more resources to keep alive. Oh, and ignore out of combat utility.

But sure. Quote a few rules so you can say you've "proven" something when the question was "can you show the math".

 

[doctorbadwolf]

First, a fighter gets it's second extra attack at lvl 11.

Second, I specifically talked about a fighter with access to feats in the post he quoted, so I don't see where you are getting at?

Third, I'm not talking about some obscure over specialized build, I just gave three very, very common options for any fighter in a game with feats.

without math, we don’t know who wins.

Also, the rogue has feats too. Depending on campaign, Sentinel or Mage Slayer boosts the Rogue significantly, and skulker and sharpshooter can make a sniper permastealth rogue untouchable in a game where great distance is regularly possible. (Ditch sharpshooter otherwise)

An Arcane Trickster Rogue with any optimization should be right up there with the fighter with a top shelf feat at all tiers.

 

[Nefermandias]

D'oh! Bad memory on extra attacks. But it still depends on a whole bunch of assumptions. GWM is great against lower ACs, doesn't really help against higher. Effect of action surges depends on number of encounters between rests.

Last but not least it's focusing 100% on DPR and, as usual with the spreadsheet calculations, ignores the defensive side of the equation. Being hidden, even if it's only on the enemy's turn, vastly improves a PC's survivability. If a fighter is focused on DPR it means they aren't using a shield for example. Those fighters are going to be front line and require more resources to keep alive. Oh, and ignore out of combat utility.

But sure. Quote a few rules so you can say you've "proven" something when the question was "can you show the math".

I know I can be a real @#$hole sometimes, but hear me out...
I'm not trying to prove anything by quoting a few rules. As a matter of fact, you and me are in agreement in this one. The way you handle stealth is pretty much how I handle it too. I'm not sure why we're arguing here?
That said, yes, I was talking exclusively about DPR when I brought up feats and Extra Attack vs Sneak Attack... Of course rogues can do a whole bunch of things that fighters can't. It's a non argument.

 

[Oofta]

without math, we don’t know who wins.

Also, the rogue has feats too. Depending on campaign, Sentinel or Mage Slayer boosts the Rogue significantly, and skulker and sharpshooter can make a sniper permastealth rogue untouchable in a game where great distance is regularly possible. (Ditch sharpshooter otherwise)

An Arcane Trickster Rogue with any optimization should be right up there with the fighter with a top shelf feat at all tiers.

Why is an arcane trickster rogue better at DPR than some of the other ones? I don't really care about DPR - my arcane trickster rogue was more about out of combat utility spells than anything - but I've seen a few people say this and was curious what spells make that much of a difference.

 

[Nefermandias]

Why is an arcane trickster rogue better at DPR than some of the other ones? I don't really care about DPR - my arcane trickster rogue was more about out of combat utility spells than anything - but I've seen a few people say this and was curious what spells make that much of a difference.

Arcane Trickster can SA with blade cantrips for starters...

 

[Mistwell]

What? You disagree that a lvl 11 Battle Master with either GWF, CBE or PAM would easily outdamage a lvl 11 rogue?

I disagree that overall across most levels a battle master will outdamage a rogue if both are optimized fairly well. Yes. I'd like to see your math though. I am open to being proven wrong but you made that claim so I assume you've run those numbers in some manner?

 

[Charlaquin]

Being hidden, even if it's only on the enemy's turn, vastly improves a PC's survivability.

Being hidden on the enemy’s turn does literally nothing in the pillar-or-halfling’s-Medium-ally use case under discussion here though.

 

[Oofta]

I know I can be a real @#$hole sometimes, but hear me out...
I'm not trying to prove anything by quoting a few rules. As a matter of fact, you and me are in agreement in this one. The way you handle stealth is pretty much how I handle it too. I'm not sure why we're arguing here?
That said, yes, I was talking exclusively about DPR when I brought up feats and Extra Attack vs Sneak Attack... Of course rogues can do a whole bunch of things that fighters can't. It's a non argument.

Sorry. Probably a pet peeve of mine showing it's ugly head along with confusing posters.

My pet peeve is that people claim that "build X is far superior to build Y" and then show like a handful of numbers that are only part of the picture. I wrote a program way back when that did "cage matches" between various builds that looked at things like "If I throw level X fighter against a variety of level appropriate monsters with build Y how many times would they win". While it's entirely possible my program was totally FUBARed, as far as I could tell a lot of white-room spreadsheets didn't really tell the truth.

But that's a whole other topic.

 

[Mistwell]

Arcane Trickster can SA with blade cantrips for starters...

Yeah that's what I have been running. And he get advantage almost every round. Sometimes through a familiar using the help action, sometimes from attacking from a hidden position, sometimes from an ally knocking the foe down, sometimes from Steady Aim. And of course sneak attack and cantrip damage both increase at a pretty fair rate over all the levels. And then at higher levels if you can arrange for an opportunity attack it gets devastating.