Roles in Roleplaying Games

[pemerton]

What sorts of things do they do outside of combat? What level are they? Do they have a lot of background info that informs their in-game choices?

The PCs in my game reached 14th level yesterday.

There is a melee controller dwarf polearm fighter, whose paragon path is Warpriest (of Moradin). Outside of combat, he is (at present) the party leader, at least as far as the external world is concerned: Lord Derrik, Lord of the Dwarfholme of the East. Explaining how this came about is a bit convoluted.

When the game started, I (as GM) gave instructions to each player to build a PC (i) with a loyalty/obligation/affiliation to someone or something external to him-/herself, and (ii) with a reason to be ready to fight goblins. Derrik's story (chosen by his player) was this: in the dwarfhold of the Eastern mountains, every young dwarf serves in the army. But you don't really graduate to higher ranks (or, alternatively, to a chance to muster out into civilian life) until you have killed your first goblin. Now in the many years of Derrik's service there were many fights with goblins, but for some reason or other Derrik was never there - he was running an errand for a more senior dwarf, doing latrine duty, or whatever. Eventually, after many years, and sick of being the butt of endless jokes, with the help of his mother he deserted the army and headed out to adventure in the outside world, and find goblins to fight there. Which ended up happening (in the second session of play, I think).

Anyway, about 8 or so levels and two years or so of play later, the PCs were travelling west through the mountains, trying to avoid gnoll pursuers while making their way to (what they hoped would be) a friendly city. En route, they came across an old wizard's villa that had become the house of some hags, and after a series of time-travelling and plane-shifting encounters, and resolving their differences with the hags, the PCs reached paragon tier. As they were about to depart the villa to continue west, some dwarves arrived at the villa. They explained that they had become lost while on patrol far from home, and had been attacked by hobgoblins. They had "retreated in good order" from the hobgoblins, who had not pursued. And then an angel of Moradin had come to them, and told them that a warpriest of Moradin, who would aid them, could be found in the foothills to the south. And the angel had left a holy symbol to be delivered to that warpriest. So the dwarves who could had travelled south, and thus come upon the villa.

When Derrik stepped forward, the leader of the dwarves recognised him. He expressed surprise to see Derrik there, but asked him where the warpriest was. When Derrik said that it was him, the leader laughed! At which point I told the player of Derrik that Derrik recognised the leader, and a number of the other dwarf NPCs also, from his time in the dwarven army - they had come in after him, but graduated ahead of him! Anyway, this back-and-forth went on for a bit - with the other players at the table throwing in the odd remark (on behalf of the NPCs) telling Derrik to get back to cleaning the latrines - until Derrik's player announced that he was using one of his close burst encounter powers with his halberd to knock all the dwarves over. I can't remember, now, how I resolved this - probably as an Initimdate check with a +2 bonus for expending the encounter power (as per the guidelines in DMG 2). But anyway it succeeded, and the dwarves were suitably cowed and impressed. And joined the party as Derrik's followers.

Now all but 2 of the dwarf NPCs got killed in the party's next encounter, which was a raid on a village by hobgoblins with a behemoth warbeast. Hobgoblins killed some of the dwarves, and the behemoth knocked over the house some of the more injured ones were sheltering in. But one of the survivors - named (by me) Gutboy Barrelhouse (as per the 1st ed DMG) - appointed himself Derrik's herald. Hence Derrik was announced as Lord Derrik when the party eventually arrived at the friendly city, and he has continued to act as the leader of the party in dealing with the rulers of the city. Given that he is not trained in any social skills, and has a 10 CHA, this has led to some interesting situations that turn on the tension between (i) Derrik, and the rest of the party (who quite like the arrangement), keeping him in his position as party leader, while (ii) allowing other members of the party, who are better at such things, to defuse/otherwise handle delicate social situations.

(More details here and here.)

I won't go into the same detail for the other PCs. There is a wizard/divine philosopher who once was in service to the Raven Queen, but now serves Erathis, Ioun and (more ambivalently, but still with enough dedication to have upset the Sword of Kas) Vecna. He is the party scholar and ritualist. He is also on a quest to restore the Sceptre of Erathis (the Rod of 7 Parts), which was given to him by Erathis herself after the character died but was sent back into life by the Raven Queen at Erathis's behest. The restoration of the Sceptre is part of his broader goal to restore civilisation (perhaps in the form of the older Empire of Nerath) and his own former town (where he was once a pastry chef) that was sacked and razed by orcs and other humanoids. He is also the only party member to have summarily executed prisoners - hobgoblins once, a devil-worshipping tiefling another time.

There is a tiefling paladin/questing knight in service to the Raven Queen. He sleeps standing up - this was specified as something he was practising from the first session of the game, but it was only yesterday that I learned that this was because his view is that only the dead lie horizontally! Out of combat he contributes seriousness, righteousness and a general absence of mirth. He is physically weak, but has a commanding presence and great spiritual fervour.

There is a drow chaos sorcerer/Demonskin Adept who is a member of a secret society of drow who serve Corellon, and are dedicated to undoing the sundering of the elves. Out of combat he contributes chicanery and mirth. He also skins any demons the PCs kill, to add to his rawhide demonskin accoutrements he wears as part of his Paragon Path. In yesterday' session he rescued from slavery the elven crafter who made his wyrmtooth dagger (who is also a member of the same society, and who had been captured by gnolls riding across the country to deliver the newly-crafted dagger to the PC). He (the drow PC) wants to set up some sort of Tower of High Sorcery, and I think want to recruit the crafter to this endeavour.

The fifth PC is an archer ranger/cleric. He is another devotee of the Raven Queen. Of all the PCs, he probably has the least developed background or goals. Out of combat, he is (as suits an elven ranger) the party guide and tracker.

Anyway, the two links above - to actual play reports of two non-combat sessions with this group - will give you more of an idea of the nitty gritty of non-combat action resolution with these guys, if you're interested. (And this thread describes how the group successfully negotiated with Kas and returned to him his sword - this was a mixed combat/non-combat encounter.)

 

[Mark CMG]

Thanks for all of the detail, pem. I wish I could XP you again but maybe someone else will stand proxy for me.

 

[pemerton]

Thanks for all of the detail, pem. I wish I could XP you again but maybe someone else will stand proxy for me.

No worries. In case it wasn't obvious, I like to talk about my game!

Anyway, I think that 4e lends itself to being seen as two distinct "games" - the combat game, and the "real" game. My goal as a GM has been to marry these two games, using a range of techniques to make the "real" game speak to the combat game, and vice versa. The thread I linked to about the negotiations with Kas is one example of that. And I think that 4e has a whole lot of tools to support this (more than other versions of D&D, more than Rolemaster or Runequest).

But I think it is a mistake on WotC's part not to give more indication - in their rulebooks, in their web columns, etc - of how this can be done, and of how the tools that the designers have provided can be used. There are occasional hints and ideas in Chris Perkins' columns, but that's about as far as it goes.

EDIT: Another thought, which also relates to "roles as a straightjacket". In the story about Derrik, above, how did it come about that some dwarves came looking for the warpriest? Well, when the players took their paragon paths, Derrik didn't have a holy symbol. So I thought it would be good to get him one, now that he was a Warpriest. And so I came up with the idea of the injured dwarves being told of his location by an angel. It was only when I actually started running the scene that I decided to play up his background and have a bit of fun with it.

But by putting the player on the spot like this, I oblige him to respond with what he's got on his character sheet and between his ears. He doesn't get to choose whether or not the party "face" handles the encounter - if Derrik doesn't step up in some fashion or other, he's more-or-less conceding that he's still the latrine-cleaning nobody that he was when he left the dwarfhold to become an adventurer.

To generalise a bit: if you want your players to break out of their preferred roles, set up situations - whether in combat, or out of combat - that make them choose: step up to the challenge, even if you're not optimised for it, or let your PC take a hosing within the context of the fiction. My players tend to step up, because they're there to play the game. (And they like to try and turn the tables - to make the situation that was meant to challenge them, become one that serves them. When it comes to Derrik's "lordship", they've done this pretty well, even though I'm still trying as best I can to turn it back onto them again. All this is playing the game too.)

 

[Bluenose]

Interesting but I am not sure that answers the question as to whether we are talking about a "role" in a larger sense or specifically a combat role. For instance, a "Knight" in the game Pendragon, to choose one of your examples, has any number of potential combat styles but also, as a knight, has certain societal expectations tied to the role. One could play such a character and focus on combat but the rules of the game draw up a much broader role than simply that of a combatant and, as such, the game supports roleplaying both in and out of combat quite well.

Well, in Pendragon all the characters are the same 'class' in combat terms and to a large degree the particular weapon they're best at doesn't make much difference - they're all going to have training as armoured melee fighters. In Runequest, characters will (usually; not true of an all Impala-rider game I played in) be more variable, with different 'classes'. In combat terms, some might be melee specialists, some missile specialists, and some will be best at casting. Most magic-specialists will be quite limited in the variety of things they're good at, too. If you're sensible and not carrying a geas, even if you're specialised in melee fighting you'll carry some sort of missile weapon and learn a little useful magic. But it's extremely unlikely that you'll be as capable in your secondary 'roles' as you are in your primary one - perhaps not quite impossible, but that will come at a price. Changing from melee-specialist to missile-specialist or magic-specialist or vice-versa would consume a huge amount of time, money and effort; and it might not even work. D&D is very generous in letting BAB transfer between weapons, compared to many other games, and for that matter in the range of magic available to nearly all specialist casters.

 

[Ringlerun]

I have just read all the posts for this thread and i have come a conclusion. I think its time for D&D to enter the world of point buy.

Combat roles and Archetypes can be kept. Then stats, powers, feats and skills can be point bought.

This keeps the defined combat roles and allows players to fully customize their characters to suite play style.

Stats, powers, feats and skills will have point costs based on Archetype

Just a thought.

 

[billd91]

Well, this is a bit off topic, since melee vs ranged aren't codified roles and this is a thread about codified roles.

I'm not much of a 4e rules guru, and the only defender I played was a more controllery fighter (lots of pushing/pulling and AoE effects). The best bet, IMO, would be a Paladin for this sort of thing. Lots of Paladin powers work at range, or are decent AOE effects, and his marking powers work at range as well. Admittedly, it would be fairly short range, but in a dungeon setting, that wouldn't matter too terribly much.

But, this one I'll grant you. A defender that can switch between melee and ranged is not an easy thing to build.

If that defender can't switch between melee and ranged, with credible powers for both, that shows how codified his role really is. That fighter tends to be stuck at the front, melee weapon in hand, with weaker options for ranged attacks. In other games, with less codified roles, that fighter could have chosen to be a real killer with a bow.

 

[pemerton]

In other games, with less codified roles, that fighter could have chosen to be a real killer with a bow.

In my last Rolemaster game, one of the PCs was a strong fighter with both sword(s) and bow. But, in Rolemaster, there are no options comparable to those open to a fighter in 4e - of marking (and thereby, whether we treat it as ingame or metagame, effectively granting the rest of the party +2 AC), and of stopping moving foes in their tracks (with OAs).

In 4e, I'd probably build the PC in question as an archer warlord, perhaps hybrided with fighter. He would be viable both in melee and at ranger, and would have reasonable AC and hit points, but wouldn't be able to control targets in the way that a 4e defender does. It is this control ability that you're paying for when you build a 4e fighter and therefore give up on ranged attacks as a strong component of your repertoire.

 

[Plane Sailing]

After discussion I've allowed Vyvyan Bastard back into the thread.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I have just read all the posts for this thread and i have come a conclusion. I think its time for D&D to enter the world of point buy.

Combat roles and Archetypes can be kept. Then stats, powers, feats and skills can be point bought.

This keeps the defined combat roles and allows players to fully customize their characters to suite play style.

Stats, powers, feats and skills will have point costs based on Archetype

Just a thought.

I thought we did point buy in 3.5?

 

[billd91]

I thought we did point buy in 3.5?

I believe he means the whole enchilada, not just base stats.