Rolling to Hit: A Sacred Cow that should have been slain?
Roxlimn said:
This pretty much covers it.
Despite what so many people are saying, 4e and MMOs share virtually no mechanics in common. Tabletop RPGs and computer games are so fundamentally different that anyone making any claim to the contrary is taking an overly simplified and overly shallow view of the games.
Victim
First Post
On one hand, I don't really want virtually automatic hits.
However, I do think that the new miss rate is really harsh. Against Yuanti Abominations, for instance, our characters were pretty much hitting half the time even going after their weak defenses (when possible), and they were lower level than us. It's not like most characters have a full attack to get multiple rolls on. That one die roll is most of a character's turn, and can have an encounter power riding on it.
It'd probably feel more satisfying to hit more like 70% of the time: characters are still hitting most of the time, but missing isn't so infrequent as to especially noteable. And then using higher level monsters isn't as much of a whiff fest.
To counteract the increased ease of hitting, many powers could attach the secondary conditions to a secondary attack roll. Sort of like Poisons or a succubus's kiss. If you're hitting at about 70 on each attack, then the chance to land the condition is about the same as with a straight 50/50 shot. Bumping the monster up 4 levels, we'd expect the normal 50% chance to go to 30%, and our enhanced hit system to have 50 and then 25 odds.
However, I do think that the new miss rate is really harsh. Against Yuanti Abominations, for instance, our characters were pretty much hitting half the time even going after their weak defenses (when possible), and they were lower level than us. It's not like most characters have a full attack to get multiple rolls on. That one die roll is most of a character's turn, and can have an encounter power riding on it.
It'd probably feel more satisfying to hit more like 70% of the time: characters are still hitting most of the time, but missing isn't so infrequent as to especially noteable. And then using higher level monsters isn't as much of a whiff fest.
To counteract the increased ease of hitting, many powers could attach the secondary conditions to a secondary attack roll. Sort of like Poisons or a succubus's kiss. If you're hitting at about 70 on each attack, then the chance to land the condition is about the same as with a straight 50/50 shot. Bumping the monster up 4 levels, we'd expect the normal 50% chance to go to 30%, and our enhanced hit system to have 50 and then 25 odds.
I was just waiting for when someone would actually start asking for WoW mechanics to hit D&D.
Didn't even take long. 4E is such a failure. Catering to the wrong kind of people
It's fine that you play MMOs (I do myself) but don't try to make D&D into a computer game because you lack imagination and want to look on silly graphics - just play your MMO and keep its rules to the game. It's bad enough that WotC plays WoW and try to make D&D into a computer game, don't need the fans to do the same.
Didn't even take long. 4E is such a failure. Catering to the wrong kind of people
It's fine that you play MMOs (I do myself) but don't try to make D&D into a computer game because you lack imagination and want to look on silly graphics - just play your MMO and keep its rules to the game. It's bad enough that WotC plays WoW and try to make D&D into a computer game, don't need the fans to do the same.
While I agree that 4th edition has moved closer to a video game kind of feel one of my main things is that when I play DnD I DON"T want to play a video game. In fact in my oppinion The table top RPG is still far superior to the MMO in many many ways. However I can understand the frustration with the fifty fifty hit chance, but I also see where if you use smart tactical decisions and actually work with the rest of the party these chances increase quite a bit.
Also there is something truly primal in the joy of having to score a hit in order to live through the combat. YOur heart is racing, your mind is thinking of all the things you should of done, your hands are shaking. Then with a prayer to the gods of fate you send the die spinning onto the table, you hold your breath. You look and bam! you hit.
Every one at the table is cheering, you feel like a hero (which is what the rpg is about) and you have a tale to regale over and over again.
Admitted the other side is not that great. Failure plain and simple sucks, but for the excitement to exist it should be a threat. I mean if you knew you were going to succeed then why bother playing in the first place?
Also there is something truly primal in the joy of having to score a hit in order to live through the combat. YOur heart is racing, your mind is thinking of all the things you should of done, your hands are shaking. Then with a prayer to the gods of fate you send the die spinning onto the table, you hold your breath. You look and bam! you hit.
Every one at the table is cheering, you feel like a hero (which is what the rpg is about) and you have a tale to regale over and over again.
Admitted the other side is not that great. Failure plain and simple sucks, but for the excitement to exist it should be a threat. I mean if you knew you were going to succeed then why bother playing in the first place?
Mortellan
Explorer
Quite a humorous topic. They streamlined saving throws into the attack rolls. I would never put anything past WotC now. If someday they lose the dice I'd say most likely attacks will be done by playing attack cards and missing, dodging, resisting will merely be interrupt cards in turn. Scary fun!
Alarius said:Catering to the wrong kind of people
Let us be very clear - there is nobody on these boards in a position to dictate who are the "right" and 'wrong" people to play D&D. Assertion that liking a particular style of play makes one "wrong" is not acceptable on these boards. Do not make such an assertion again.
That being said, this thread is not to devolve into a flame war. State why you do or don't like the rules variation as you will. Do not generalize that it is "wrong" to do otherwise, and don't get personal in discussing particular reasons. If you see someone who does, don't get in their face about it - just report the post, and ignore them.
RPGs are about preferences and tastes - and there is no accounting for such.
While I don't mind such a high miss chance for the standard at-will attacks or basic attacks, I think there should have been some built in bonus to other attacks. It's not so bad to miss with your encounter power, though it really is annoying, but your daily attacks on the other hand... They most often have the potential to turn a combat completely around, you can only use them once per day, so they are something you use when there's no other options. And then you roll a 6 on the die roll and sighs as you find the books and starts making your new character because you're now going to die...
For instance I played last night. First encounter my Rogue ends up getting isolated from the rest of the party and my hp drops quickly. I look over my powers and sees that I have only one power that can save my bacon, blinding barrage, which is a daily power and takes the form of a blast that blinds enemies. So I shift back and uses this blast, rolls 4 dice and misses on 3 of those attacks. Next round I was dropped and after the battle the healers went to work patching up my severely mauled body. With a bonus to hit I would probably have survived and been capable of getting back to the rest of the party.
For instance I played last night. First encounter my Rogue ends up getting isolated from the rest of the party and my hp drops quickly. I look over my powers and sees that I have only one power that can save my bacon, blinding barrage, which is a daily power and takes the form of a blast that blinds enemies. So I shift back and uses this blast, rolls 4 dice and misses on 3 of those attacks. Next round I was dropped and after the battle the healers went to work patching up my severely mauled body. With a bonus to hit I would probably have survived and been capable of getting back to the rest of the party.
ConcreteBuddha
First Post
I fail to see how a 50% chance for success is a canon staple of tabletop RPGs. Having an auto hit game would be more like chess, where your strategy is more important than the random number generator.
Granted, I dig my dice, and the randomness they provide is a crucial to the tabletop experience, so I would need to have some version of a RNG inherent to the game. That said, the form it takes does not have to be the one in DnD.
So I think this house rule could work, however, there are so many abilities that would need to be altered, that you might have to start from scratch and make your own game from the bottom up. DnD is already balanced around the scaling 50%, and you may run into a bunch of glitches that you or we can't anticipate.
Granted, I dig my dice, and the randomness they provide is a crucial to the tabletop experience, so I would need to have some version of a RNG inherent to the game. That said, the form it takes does not have to be the one in DnD.
So I think this house rule could work, however, there are so many abilities that would need to be altered, that you might have to start from scratch and make your own game from the bottom up. DnD is already balanced around the scaling 50%, and you may run into a bunch of glitches that you or we can't anticipate.
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