Romance? Err... ok?

[fusangite]

Some GMs and some players can't handle romance in-game; this is a question of emotional maturity and natural disposition.

I play out romantic interactions in-game to the extent I & everyone else seems comfortable with. The better my fellow RPers, the less glossed-over it will be.

I think there are many reasons GMs deem romance to be an inappropriate theme for their game that do not entail any psychological deficiencies on the part of any participants. Nor do I think it's reasonable either to equate being a good roleplayer with playing out romantic scenes.

>>4. How do you avoid in-game romances creating uncomfortable out of game social dynamics?<<
Like what?

There's a pretty strong association in our culture between romance and social awkwardness -- just look at the plot structure of your average sitcom or romantic comedy. I'm sure there are many ways people reading this thread can imagine something like this producing social awkwardness. Your observation that you have never observed player-player romantic dynamics in tabletop games is indicative of this.

 

[Crothian]

This thread should get very interesting when there are more Blue Rose campaigns running.

Don't forget about Love and War though it is more knight oriented but still has some great romance ptotential

 

[Silver Moon]

Our game has been running since 1982 with most of the original players still in the group, so romance has become a natural part of the game. We have a level of comfort and maturity with each other so that a "romance" between characters has no relationship to the players. We have had a number of marriages and children to the PC's over that time.

In my western PBP game we have a lot of romantic situations as well. Again, the group of players are mature and resonsible adults who understand that these are character relationships not player relationships. It adds a lot to the game itself.

 

[Hammerhead]

In a Star Wars game my character's primary motivation was romance, although such things turned out rather badly after he accidentally killed her do the BBEG's use of the Illusion power. The ex-Jedi spent most of the game looking for his girlfriend, and only got to spend a few sessions with her before she was kidnapped.

In my current game I run one of the PCs has expressed interest in pursuing a relationship with one of the NPCs currently travelling with them. He doesn't have much of a shot though.

It tends to be glossed over in my experience.

 

[S'mon]

I think there are many reasons GMs deem romance to be an inappropriate theme for their game that do not entail any psychological deficiencies on the part of any participants.

I disagree, although maybe 'deficiency' is too strong a word. I do think it's odd, anyway. The source genre literature is always full of romance, avoiding it entirely in-game seems a strange thing to do _unless_ players & GM find it makes them uncomfortable. BTW as GM I had experience of a player who was happy to have his PC have romances, but was such an excruciatingly awful RPer it made me as GM regret including them.

Nor do I think it's reasonable either to equate being a good roleplayer with playing out romantic scenes.

I would equate being a good roleplayer with _ability_ to play out romantic scenes, or any other kind of scene. Just as a good tactical gamer is good at fighting & winning combats within the rules framework, a good roleplayer is good at in-character acting.

There's a pretty strong association in our culture between romance and social awkwardness -- just look at the plot structure of your average sitcom or romantic comedy. I'm sure there are many ways people reading this thread can imagine something like this producing social awkwardness. Your observation that you have never observed player-player romantic dynamics in tabletop games is indicative of this.

Did I say that? I meant that I haven't seen it in games I GM, but when I've played (tabletop) my PCs have regularly had relations that could be called romantic with other PCs; not sex & marriage, but the genre-appropriate kind - Carter & O'Neill, Xena & Gabrielle, Han & Leia (in ep IV), that kind of thing. In a 2-player 'buddy team' type swashbuckling game my male Rogue PC was always trying (and comically failing) to get the female Rogue PC into bed, while in another game my grim female fighter PC was deeply in Platonic (but 'romantic') love with another female fighter PC, in fact their relationship was perhaps the most compelling & dramatic I've seen in an RPG. Perhaps it's noteable that both those games had female GMs and in both cases my PC's relationship was with a PC played by a female player, it might not have been possible with a male GM.

 

[S'mon]

As Silver Moon says, it's a question of comfort and (emotional) maturity. Many (male) RPers do not wish and/or are not comfortable with IC romance in the game. This doesn't make their preferred no-romance game invalid or badwrongfun. It's all good.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

In my usual games, it happens, but it is glossed over. Just like I'd gloss over the specific details of a PC's house or the exact menu of an inn.

However, my only successful 3.x game has been with my wife in a "solo" campaign where she plays 4 PCs on and off and I run 3 DMPCs. We do a lot of romance themes there...

 

[fusangite]

I disagree, although maybe 'deficiency' is too strong a word. I do think it's odd, anyway. The source genre literature is always full of romance, avoiding it entirely in-game seems a strange thing to do

I don't think that what D&D play represents or the stories it produces are as close to fantasy literature as people would like. Also, maybe it's just the Tolkien fan in me but I rather admired the great man consigning one romance in LOTR to an appendix and glossing over the other.

But, in fact, many RPGs remove all cringe-worthy elements that appear quite commonly in fantasy literature. The D&D system doesn't even let people have lingering painful wounds that will hobble them for the next fight. It says something when the system itself effectively prohibits people from having festering wounds and dislocated shoulders. All aspects of violence that are cringe-worthy because they are persistent, painful and debilitating and drummed out of the game through the damage mechanic. Similarly, sexual violence and torture, again because of the discomfort they produce in the audience, are rarely present in D&D and again require mechanics that do not appear in the core and run counter to how the damage mechanic works.

In my view, therefore, anything that appears in a book that has the potential to elicit significant discomfort and awkwardness is avoided in D&D while things that produce drama and apprehension in other ways tend to be over-represented in D&D stories (e.g. mortal combat).

_unless_ players & GM find it makes them uncomfortable.

No dispute here. But I guess my question is this: don't you think people should be uncomfortable play-acting seduction with friends who are not their girlfriend or spouse? Isn't that normal? Romance is not emotionally identical or even comparable to political intrigue and comic book violence and to treat it as such is an exercise in self-delusion.

Look at this another way: many games both RPG and non-RPG centre on the proxy representation of violence and deadly force. How many centre on representations of romance? And of those few games, how many are party games designed to facilitate sexual or romantic congress amongst the participants (or alternatively some habitual regime of self-abuse by the lone participant)? Politics and violence are normal things to represent in games; romance and sex are not.

I would equate being a good roleplayer with _ability_ to play out romantic scenes, or any other kind of scene.

Sure. I'll concede that. But, in my book, a good role player also knows when such play is appropriate.

 

[shilsen]

But I guess my question is this:

Though the questions were aimed at S'mon, I'll take a crack. Everything that follows is my personal opinion, of course.

don't you think people should be uncomfortable play-acting seduction with friends who are not their girlfriend or spouse?

Should be? Not at all. Do I recognize that many people are uncomfortable with the above? sure.

Isn't that normal?

Depends on one's definition of "normal". I don't think that sort of discomfort makes sense and regard it as a little abnormal. But I'd agree that it might actually be the norm. Of course, there are a lot of things that are the norm and which people do more often than not which I define as abnormal

Romance is not emotionally identical or even comparable to political intrigue and comic book violence and to treat it as such is an exercise in self-delusion.

Does it have to be emotionally identical to have it in the game? I think there are things in the game which are emotionally (and otherwise) quite disparate, but which are all worth having in the game.

Look at this another way: many games both RPG and non-RPG centre on the proxyrepresentation of violence and deadly force. How many centre on representations of romance? And of those few games, how many are party games designed to facilitate sexual or romantic congress amongst the participants (or alternatively some habitual regime of self-abuse by the lone participant)?

I've got very little personal experience with RPGs besides D&D, so I'm obviously not well-informed in this area, but I'm sure you're right about violence being much more common in games than anything to do with romance &/or sex.

Politics and violence are normal things to represent in games; romance and sex are not.

Which comes back to the definition of "normal". I'd say politics and violence are conventionally more popular to represent in games than romance and sex. Does it mean representing the latter is inherently abnormal? Not for me.

 

[S'mon]

But I guess my question is this: don't you think people should be uncomfortable play-acting seduction with friends who are not their girlfriend or spouse?

No.

Isn't that normal?

Normal as is 'common amongst a certain culture & sociodemographic', sure, yes. Normal as in good or praiseworthy, no, I don't think so. I quite agree that certain groups* are better off not including romance in the game (and I have played & GM'd in such groups), I expect your group is like this. For many people allowing romance in an RPG whether PC-PC or PC-NPC adds a lot to the game experience and doesn't raise the threats you seem to fear.

*As well as the typical immature male gamers, I'd say that it might be a good idea not to "play act seduction" with someone you are actually physically attracted to who is not your girlfriend or spouse, as you're likely to send mixed signals - it may be seen as flirting - unless you actually do want a relationship with that person, in which case you should be aware of the possible consequences.