RP *versus* combat? Not when I play

[Morrus]

While everyone seems to be on the subject of posting personal, long standing grievances about perceived attitudes in the gaming community, here's mine. I see discussions all the time along these lines:

With so much focus on combat rules, there is less RP in the game
With fewer combats overall, we can RP more
I don't like roll playing, I like role playing, so I prefer combat light systems
etc, etc, etc.

From all sides from the grognard to the modern gamer, there seems to be a perception that there are two activities during an RPG session - you are either in combat or you are roleplaying.

No, they're merly implifying an issue for the sake of discussion. Nobody believes you can't roleplay in combat. But that doesn't mean that some systems and/or groups are not more combat-heavy or roleplay-heavy.

 

[Umbran]

Thasmodius, I'm glad that you're having a good time of it, but perhaps you don't have the problems some others do.

Simply put - thinking in terms of rules tends to break player immersion.

When you are busy counting squares, or deciding exactly how much you're putting into your Power Attack for optimum effect it is very, very easy to lose sight of other things. It is very, very easy for many players to slip into "chess mode", where the emotions and motivations and personality of the characters get lost, because so much attention is being payed to the tactical skirmish game.

In addition, the time required for each character to resolve actions is generally much higher in combat than elsewhere - and again that breaks immersion. Sure, at the start of the fight maybe Gorbash the Magificent was angry as all get-out. But, Gorbash's player has been waiting for others to resolve their actions, and he's been cooling his heels for ten minutes or more, so his mind has wandered, lost momentum and steam, and all that.

Combine the two effects together, and you can get a real roleplay buzzkill. While technically combat and roleplay are not mutually exclusive, that does not mean that they aren't difficult for many players to manage at the same time. I'm happy if it doesn't happen to you, but it does happen to others, and for them it can be a serious drag on fun.

 

[Henry]

No, they're merely simplifying an issue for the sake of discussion. Nobody believes you can't roleplay in combat. But that doesn't mean that some systems and/or groups are not more combat-heavy or roleplay-heavy.

Agreed, from my experience. It's all in how much rule-variety a given designer puts into an activity. You can go D&D style, where you deal with everything from six different abilities that convert into a second ability (known as an "ability modifier"), four different kinds of defenses, hit points, multiple granular combat actions, magic items that enhance or detract from all these, etc. and then have less rule complexity for non-combat actions (the skill system can have almost as much rolling for results, but has maybe one-fifth of the rules and modifiers that combat has); then, you can have systems like Dogs in the Vineyard, where everything from Bloody Combat to Brushing Your Teeth Properly is handled with exactly the same mechanics - and both could theoretically net you just as much XP advancement!

Speaking personally, I've had plenty of dramatic roleplay-filled moments arising from a combat, whether it was wacky luck of the dice dramatically interpreted by a DM, or a situation I set up in the thick of combat. My favorite still to this day was from a 3E game almost 10 years ago, as my Cleric of Tempus was "the unkillable cleric" thanks to some well-placed buff spells, and my coming for the main villain, looking like a cross between the Terminator and Rambo, beaten, burned, and bruised, but calling his name as I stalked him a good 150 feet across the battlefield, through Fire Storms, Blade Barriers, Gated devils, you name it. God, that was fun.

 

[Greg K]

Well when I talk about rp vs combat, I am talking about the time engaged in combat vs. time spent interacting with npcs (e.g., nobles, townspeople, clergy, etc).

My preference is to have fewer and/or shorter combats and spend more time
a)learning about the GMs setting;
b) discovering who framed the party's knight for treason while he tries to win back his fiancee;
c) convincing the dwarf king to join our side before the diplomat from the Isle of Mages convinces him to join theirs;
d) uncovering the villain responsible for summoning a demon and learning it was an accident of which he was unaware;
e) helping the halfling win a baking contest so that we can work our way into a snooty nobleman's party and stea his prized gem;or
f) simply entertaining the barbarian's jarl and clan with tales of his exploits so that he gains honor and status;

If b,c, or d results in a climatic combat with the knight's rival and allies, a showdown with the ambassador as he attempts to assassinate the king for denying the Mages' alliance, or the summoned demon respectively, I am fine with it provided it does not drag on which for myself starts anywhere after 15-30 minutes of real time) unlike a string of combats-especially, meaningless ones- which bore me to death.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Our group also prefers lots of action scenes for our roleplaying. They don't necessarily need to be combat scenes, but we do want lots of action.

Immersion is usually better served by a rules light approach. And it is true that the more people get into the "game" part, the more they may ignore the "roleplay" part.

However, I think the big elephant in the living room is something else. Namely, the more you structure your action scenes to impose severe consequences for bad choices, the less roleplaying you will get out of most players during such scenes. And the more severe the consequences, the more analysis paralysis and other combat grind you will get, which will compound the whole problem.

To have a good action roleplaying scene, you want Indiana Jones to sweat, but you don't want his player to sweat nearly so much. You can get that by using "stunts" or action points or other tools to simulate the scene. But that might encourage the player to focus on such tools like a laser. Or, and this is what I do, you can put the character in a situation that seems rough to them, but the player doesn't find nearly so bad. Decision making becomes easy, and this frees up the part of the brain that wants to make fun remarks.

 

[steeldragons]

I know I'm reiterating a lot of what people have already said, but I have never played/encountered a game where the "combat" meant I didn't RP.

It is, after all, an RPG. Some might prefer to "G", some might prefer to "RP"...one does not exclude the other insofar as the group desires.

What might by right for others might not be right for some.

The bottom line, and I think the basis of the OP, is...combat, no combat, few combats, lotsa RPing or little, if everyone is HAVING FUN then mission accomplished.

Happy gaming to all and to all a good game.
--Steel Dragons

 

[Mark CMG]

I know plenty of people who focus on the mechanics of battle in systems where combat is the primary focus and RPing is not. Which is not to say that it is devoid of RPing. People tend to let the rules be their guide as to how to play a game.

 

[Oryan77]

I'm playing my character when I'm renting a room for the night or selling the metal armor we took off those orcs. And I'm playing my character when we're fighting those orcs - shouting out orders, telling an ally to watch his back, responding to tactical needs, shouting battle cries or for a fallen ally, cursing and taunting my enemies left and right... So are the people I game with.

I was gonna say this by giving you xp, but it appears that I gotta spread around the xp instead.

How do I get you into my game? Or better yet, how do I get your entire group into my game? I'll DM you guys. I won't even eat up all the Cheetos.

 

[NewJeffCT]

You can sit around and RP the Duke's boring dinner all night long, but I roleplay men (and women) of action and I don't cease playing my character when initiative is rolled. The game doesn't become a math exercise. I'm playing my character when I'm renting a room for the night or selling the metal armor we took off those orcs. And I'm playing my character when we're fighting those orcs - shouting out orders, telling an ally to watch his back, responding to tactical needs, shouting battle cries or for a fallen ally, cursing and taunting my enemies left and right... So are the people I game with.

I think you can really do more than just shout out orders, taunt allies, shout battle cries, etc, in combat.

Imagine these scenarios:
1) PCs strike a slaver's caravan, with the intent of freeing a just captured local noble. Then, seeing that they (the slavers) are losing the combat, a hidden slaver ducks into the wagon and pulls out the captured noble (bound & gagged) and shouts out an order, "Drop your weapons, or Duke Dunderhead gets it!" And, he readies an action to apply a coup-de-gras to the helpless Duke. I would imagine some role-playing could come into play there. Do the players lay down their arms? Do they continue the attack, hoping that magic can revive the dead/dying Duke after his throat is slashed? Do they do something else? Do they even care about the fate of the Duke that deeply? Is the loss of the Duke okay if they save the other prisoners?

2) A paladin has been going along for several levels, and undertaking missions to obtain various items on behalf of his goodly lord. The other players have gone along with him, as the missions have been profitable for them as well. Then, the PCs come upon a small town being overrun by undead - they start to combat the horde of undead when the paladin is commanded to stop by his lord, who suddenly appears. However, the lord is now bedecked in dark garb befitting an evil cleric of undead rebuking... what does the paladin say? What does the paladin (and his friends) do when his lord tells him that all those missions helped him create a powerful evil artifact?

3) The novice players are summoned to the home of a local wizard on the outskirts of town. The wizard is also a mentor to the PC wizard. As they round the corner, a colossal red dragon is there and has just laid waste to the wizard's home - only a few charred stones remain. The PC wizard knows that his mentor rarely left the house, so was likely inside... The dragon then turns on the terrified players, who are far too close to escape a flying dragon. What do they say in this situation?

 

[Thasmodious]

Simply put - thinking in terms of rules tends to break player immersion.

When you are busy counting squares, or deciding exactly how much you're putting into your Power Attack for optimum effect it is very, very easy to lose sight of other things. It is very, very easy for many players to slip into "chess mode", where the emotions and motivations and personality of the characters get lost, because so much attention is being payed to the tactical skirmish game.

I realize that's often the case, which is why I made the thread. I guess my point is that it's just as easy NOT to do that. It just takes a little bit of effort to not fall into the all-mechanics trap. Just a moment to say "once more into the breach!" and wave your imaginary sword around, and others will follow suit.

Now, some groups are more than happy with their game in segments, here's where we RP, here's where we roll dice, here's where we do combat. And that's fine. As is often said, if you're having fun, you're doing it right. The folks I'm addressing, though, are the ones who see a wall between the two activities and don't like that wall. My point is that it's an easy wall to tear down.

Games have mechanics, and many modern games have mechanics that govern RP as well as combat. I cannot really convince the Duke to lend us an army, but my bard can. So when I make such a request, I play it to the best of my ability, then slip in my diplomacy roll. Combat is no different, even when it has considerably more mechanics.

Sure, at the start of the fight maybe Gorbash the Magificent was angry as all get-out. But, Gorbash's player has been waiting for others to resolve their actions, and he's been cooling his heels for ten minutes or more, so his mind has wandered, lost momentum and steam, and all that.

A lot of the game goes like that, though, at least with my group.
"Gorbash is angry! Gorbash smash! Before Gorbash rolls, did anyone see the new Game of Thrones preview, wasn't that awesome? Gorbash roll 12!"

How do I get you into my game? Or better yet, how do I get your entire group into my game? I'll DM you guys. I won't even eat up all the Cheetos.

You watch The Guild? I'm going to Zaboo you now.