RP *versus* combat? Not when I play

My point is that if we pit such a system against a GM who offers his own incentives to do so, (. . .)


That's a risk the RPG designer of any RPG system should take. An RPG designer should be encouraging RPing at every turn, by guideline, rule, and example. It is the single most important thing an RPG designer can do if he wants to call his game an RPG.
 

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It's easy to overcome this, if you want to in the first place, with just a little effort.

We may simply disagree on what counts as "little"...

You are always acting as your character, so its not really multitasking, anymore than managing to drive and shoot at the same time in an FPS is.

Yeah, you see, I don't feel that's true. I think there's some basic cognitive differences between, for example, having a conversation in-character, and going through a tactical combat - many of the things going on in the player's mind in the tactical combat are not really "acting as your character", IMHO, and those are the things that tend to break immersion.
 
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I have yet to meet the player whose throat will close up and who will expire in seconds if you offer them a chunk of bonus XP as a reward for good RP. :p

I didn't say system has no impact, I said this is a case where it doesn't much matter. Practically every RPG encourages roleplay in deed and/or word and practically every RPG has a rewards/advancement system that a GM could easily find room to offer such a reward whether the rules explicitly have such built in or not.

I would amend your statement to say - In a hypothetical game that only seems to exist on RPG message boards, Lost Soul is correct. But in the real world at real game tables with real players, not so much. That hypothetical game (usually RAW only) is a lot like a unicorn. It's not a stretch to imagine it exists (a horse with a horn? Why not, lots of hoofed animals grow horns), but no one's ever actually seen one.

I have multiple players in my group right now, and they have been in it for over 20 years, for whom offering extra XP in the precisely the manner you stated is not only useless for roleplaying purposes, but counter-productive. So, no, not hypothetical at all. :p

I also played with a couple of guys in college who were, as far as I could tell in the three years I played with them, completely immune to any reward system whatsoever. They roleplayed a lot, because they enjoyed it. Getting to roleplay was the reward. Any reward system was a distraction, at best. They understood rewards, and were quite willing to use them when they were the GM. They merely were not motivated by them.

Now, I'll grant you that most people are enticed by some kind of reward, to some kind of desired behavior. Know the people well enough, and you'll get some traction out of a reward system. Use one blindly, and you might get, for another example I have personally witnessed, a bunch of individuals trashing a game going after spotlight time to get the rewards. Heck, a significant minority of the Knights of the Dinner Table strips chronicle this very behavior. Chasing XP can kill a game fast, if applied incorrectly.
 



I tried (really good) BBQ and (cheap, but free) pizza. Does that count? :)

Close enough :)

They accepted it. It simply didn't change their behavior any.

I take the trash to the curb for pickup every week. If my wife started giving me a candy bar each time I did that chore, she wouldn't see a change in my behavior after giving me the reward - it isn't like I can take it out twice a week, as they only pick it up once.

If they already roleplayed a lot, and you give them a reward for that, what do you expect to see after the reward? You'd expect them to... roleplay a lot! No visible change in behavior.
 

Close enough :)

If they already roleplayed a lot, and you give them a reward for that, what do you expect to see after the reward? You'd expect them to... roleplay a lot! No visible change in behavior.

Sorry, skipped some steps in that keeping the response short and light. Had six people in the group. I treated them to BBQ and pizza, and half jokingly said that this was to encourage roleplaying. It did get a change in behavior out of the other four players, as did several other things that were tried. None of these things worked on these two, which is why I can now state that rewards did not seem to change their behavior. I also observed similar results when someone else was the GM.

This seemed to also apply to other things they did less strongly, which we would have liked modified. One of them had a penchant for psychotic characters. He wasn't a jerk about it, but nothing would entice him out of that mode. The other had a hilarious but attention-stealing habit of humming a theme song to go with whatever was currently happening in the game. You try talking to the King in character while he sits there with that mild smirk and hums something semi-appropriate.

There is, of course, the possibility that they could have been motivated by rewards that were not tried. :lol:
 
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I GM a fair amount of on-line (Skype & Maptools) D&D4e games (52 a year) and about half that around the table- I've used the game in classes (mostly with Electronic Game Design students). I've noted all of the points made so far- players that RP all the time, players that need cajoling to RP, players that require intense (immersive) dramatic action to get them to RP, players that require some kind of reward to RP etc.

The bottom line in my IMHO (and experience) is that the players that have more out-going personalities (and less hang-ups about acting out a little) sometimes (more-often) make good RP'ers (as in they try more often), require few (or fewer) rewards and... those that are naturally quiet and or a little more self-conscious don't (or do less). I don't mean don't altogether- they try at times but... are happier to let others carry the narrative (or they think they are better suited to offering advice).

In my regular games the players (none of whom knew each other before I came in to their lives) have very obvious boundaries- which are fairly unbreakable, or at least in the years I have been gaming with them they've not changed their behaviour much. That's not say I haven't tried to change them, to wring more RP out of them, noticeably the players that found RP easy at the start are the players that continue to find it easy to do as the game progresses (and vice-versa).

I'm not saying the quiet kid doesn't suddenly adopt a persona, talk in character all the time and address his imaginary horse- it's just that I've observed the above a fair amount of the times from the noisier, more outgoing members of the group.

Personally I do voices, have been known to sing, shout, scream and protest my undying love for inset PC name here (when I'm playing the princess of course- although our last princess turned out to be an Aboleth in disguise) at the drop of a hat. I leave plenty of space for the players of course (it hurts my throat after a little while- I've got about 20-30 up to 1 minutes repetoires).

RP is great, particularly good RP- even bad RP tends to move the narrative on (more so if you have a good GM who can direct traffic).

Combat is great, particularly combat with a direct baring on... something (beyond PC death), rescue the whatnot, save the thingummy, or else you're against the clock, or in a fantastical place. But sometimes (often) because of the less immersive elements it leads to RP drop off- just an observable IMHO.

It's particularly difficult in the opening games when players are still learning the rules and things have to slow to be checked. In classes (with my students) I go very rules light to get things done and enncourage them to RP- 'anything goes' is the rule in these games- most often the thing that goes is the narrative/adventure- but hey-ho.

My example would be, we have a new player in my on-line game, never played D&D4e before, he's playing an existing character (until he decides what he wants to play). First session he talks in character- something many of the other players (who have been in-game for 2.5 years) have not got round to yet (third person- no problems). In combat he doesn't name the powers he's using, he tells me what's going on- and makes it up, he asks (actually he didn't ask), he stated- 'I reach down and grab the Famine Hound, whirl it around my head and then slam it in to the other Famine Hound', then he delivers a slick one-liner in character (or two) and asks what dice he has to roll, and could he make an Athletics check as a Minor to help with the move.

We call this 'stunting' in our game- I didn't tell him that the rule for this existed, and he didn't ask- he was just there with the his PC and there were two Dogs and he wanted to hit both of them (he's a Fighter Brawler). One of the other players (on maptools) is content to just roll Skill Checks with no conversation, every week I say to him- don't just roll the dice, tell me what you're doing- describe it, explain... and he mostly does (and remembers to describe the action the next time, but not the time after, or the time after that- as I continue to watch die rolls flash by on Maptools). And a majority of the guys in game are speaking English, their second or in some cases third language.

All my players are about the same age (for both games), similar(-ish) backgrounds (qualifications, families and okay jobs), the ones talk a lot tend to do so in-character, and get immersed in the game. The ones that don't... well, don't.
 


You can sit around and RP the Duke's boring dinner all night long, but I roleplay men (and women) of action and I don't cease playing my character when initiative is rolled. The game doesn't become a math exercise. I'm playing my character when I'm renting a room for the night or selling the metal armor we took off those orcs. And I'm playing my character when we're fighting those orcs - shouting out orders, telling an ally to watch his back, responding to tactical needs, shouting battle cries or for a fallen ally, cursing and taunting my enemies left and right... So are the people I game with.

While it would be interesting that my players engage in rp while in combat, this just isn't my players' play style. When I play, I will shoot off one-liners in combat, but that's about it.

I haven't really put any thought into getting the players to rp more while combat is going on, but maybe I'll put it on my list for something to encourage.

Happy Gaming!
 

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