[RttToEE]Does anyone ever wonder...

[Celtavian]

Re

What about their Will saves, though?

That is why I say the downside of the Madness domain is nearly non-existent.

1. Clerics have a favorable Will save.
2. If you already have an 18 or higher wisdom, and you are 14th level, then it doesn't matter all that much. You get +7 on your wisdom for spell DC's, and -7 on your wisdom for saves and skills.

Wisdom: 25 for spell DCs
Wisdom: 11 for saves and skills.

Lets save you have a +1 Cloak of Resistance and Protection From Good cast, then your fort save is somewhere around +8 or 9 and +10 or 11 against good folks. There are many other spells a caster can take to bolster their saves.

I would take the minus on wisdom to gain the bonus on spell DC's and bonus spells. Let's face it, you gain significantly more than you lose, especially as a cleric whose wisdom is their primary attribute.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

Celtavian: i'm running this game right now and i have noticed that many of the clerics are built less than optimally. Sure it would be easy enough for them to compensate for their madness but most of them haven't. Maybe, because, they're insane? Or their own personal reasons, whatever, they just aren't built that good.

A Telepath or other will-save-or-die caster would have a field day with this module. It might be the only time they'll ever get a chance to Dominate (or whatever) Clerics.

 

[hong]

Re: Re

There are many other spells a caster can take to bolster their saves.

Exactly. Now stop mewling and cop those DC 25 saves they're throwing at you.

I would take the minus on wisdom to gain the bonus on spell DC's and bonus spells.

Fortunately or unfortunately, you don't have the option.

Let's face it, you gain significantly more than you lose, especially as a cleric whose wisdom is their primary attribute.

What they gain and lose is irrelevant, being NPCs who don't care about spotlight time.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

Roland,

You don't feel the priests in the RttToEE are built optimally? This makes me wonder if my DM changed a few things.

We had to retreat a few times. Old Hedrack prepared some empowered Flame Strike scrolls. His drow wizard buddy prepared some empowered lightning bolts scrolls. They toasted us.

The First has Spell Focus (Necromancy) which makes his Destruction saves DC: 29 Fort saves. That is an incredibly high Fort save which is trouble for even a high level dwarf fighter who put all his points in Con.

I don't know if my DM modified things, but those save DCs were incredible. The Clerics seemed to be designed well enough for supporting their forces and defending the Temple.

Not to mention, we were hit by some targetted dispels to get rid of our Death Wards and most of the priests were protected by Spell Resistance and other powerful defensive spells.

Our main warrior couldn't even compete with the buffed up cleric in melee. He was slaughtered.

I am almost tempted to make a war cleric sometime soon and see if they can be the main warrior of the group.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

Hong,

I told you. We already won the battle. We have only a few more encounters to finish before this module is done.

My sorcerer, arcane caster, with the help of the archer destroyed the first and the third. The cleric Death Ward Spell protected me from the destructs, and then I went to work as only an arcane caster can.

Both sides were hasted as well, but no one can match arcane casters in spell battle. Clerics have a better chance of going toe to toe with a fighter-type than they do of going toe to toe with an arcane caster.

Arcane casters are unequaled in their firepower Hong, unequaled.

Accept it the reality of the game known as D&D. Arcane casters rule!!!

 

[hong]

Re: Re

Hong,

(snip bizarre tangent)

Accept it the reality of the game known as D&D. Arcane casters rule!!!

In which case, tell me again why you started this bizarre whine thread.

Or do you just not like it when others do unto you as you do unto them?

 

[Piratecat]

Ahem. Scale back the annoyance a bit, eh?

 

[Psion]

Congratulations on sending even more ENworlders over to Dragonsfoot, pseudo-geek Psion!

Cheers!

Psuedo-geek. I got a 10/10 on the quiz. That makes me a full-on geek!

 

[Celtavian]

Re

Hong,

I started the thread because I think the module is insanely difficult. I wanted to see if others felt the same way.

Though my sorcerer has only died once when he was disintegrated, we have lost multiple party members throughout this module.

One player is on his 4th character, and that is after his first character died 3 times, his second character died 2 times and his last character was swallowed after his only small slashing weapon was destroyed by a fireball. He is hoping character number 4 does the trick.

We are on our 2nd rogue. First one died to a wight in Nulb. Second rogue has died only once to a Slay Living trap he failed to Disarm. He has been ressurected once.

We lost our monk to the altar in the Fire Temple. The replacement dwarven bard is still alive and hasn't died yet.

Just ressurected our main cleric for the 2nd time.

Our other fighter/cleric/auspician just died for the first time to a Phantasmal Killer, which prompted the other thread concerning Death Ward.

Our Paladin was also just ressurected for the 2nd time. His Half-Dragon Dire Lion Mount was just ressurected for the first time. Luckily, his cohort cleric escaped a 2nd death.

So, in the course of this module, we have had 17 deaths. I don't know about you, but that seems pretty damn lethal to me.

Alot of these deaths came about from the incredibly difficult DC's of spells because of the Madness domain and other things like Grapple checks for tentacles that sprout from altars. All in all a very tough module that causes more PC death than any other module I have ever been through.

If you think I am whining, then why bother posting? Just to antagonize me because of my opinion about arcane casters? Give it a rest already.

 

[WizarDru]

Perhaps it's me, but I didn't view this module in such an unfavorable light as some. I see it as a toolkit as much as an actual adventure (albeit a big one). It's very customizable, and suggestions are given on how to mold the game to more fit your players.

I liked the fact that the module could be made to accomadate social interaction (the political infighting of the temples) versus straight on BBEG smackdowns. I agree that it's a bit of a meatgrinder, sure...but don't we need one of those occasionally, especially for 3E?

As for the issue of the necessity of casters...well, that's debatable. It's certain that some tasks will be easier, but this is true of not having a rogue or a good frontline fighter, too. The module allows you to work around some of this by having a relatively mid-level wizard and cleric back in the town, both of whom are given reasons to cooperate (if not actively help) the party. The same is true in Hommlett, where NPCs just hang around, ready to help the players if need be.

In the game I've been running, the party only just got a cleric. They were engaging the guards at the main gate, and only had one serious fighter and no cleric at that time. They had accidentally summoned all the local human/gnoll guards, the ranger lieutenant, ogre sergeant, the big nasty and even the Trog cleric and his zombies. Hard-pressed, the cleric slapped the half-orc barbarian with a blindness spell. Suprisingly, it didn't slow the barbarian down too much. The miss chance was problematic, but he easily overcame it, and with the help of a web spell, they escaped. Barely alive, in some cases, but escaped nonetheless.

Any my players had a blast, knowing that they'd scraped by within an inch of their lives, and sound tactics had saved the day. They returned, of course, without their wizard, but with a cleric in his place, and this time, with suprise on their side, laid down serious pain. This is the kind of stuff I game for in the first place, honestly.