[RttToEE]Does anyone ever wonder...

[Dark Dragon]

By what reason pray tell did the DM determine that the Wizard, Druid, and Cleric were unable to cast spells?

Also who were you fighting that could throw around multiple Harms and Disintigate?

Sorry that I'm posting lately (had some server troubles last evening). The party is of quite classic composition:

- human paladin / cleric of Helm 13/1
- half elf fighter / cleric of Kelemvor 4 / 11
- elf wizard 15
- centaur druid of Mielikki 14 (former human)

** SPOILERS BELOW**

We've lost our ranger / fighter (12 / 2) in the Earth Temple (Harm + Mephit breath...), the paladin got killed there once because he didn't deactivated the ring of friend shielding. This saved the cleric's life...

The fight in the Water Temple...the enemies:

- 5 or 6 kuo'toa fighters (at about level 4 or 5)
- 3 skum guards (no info on their CR)
- about 8 strange, quite tough water elementals (not from the MM, our DM has the CC and the Dragon Magazine, perhaps they are described there)
- 1 kuo'toa monk (also at level 4 to 6, I suppose)
- 3 kuo'toa clerics (at least at level 11, because they used Harm and Inflict xxx wounds)
- 1 kuo'toa high priest (very tough guy, used harm + inflict...)
- 1 kuo'toa mage (at least level 13, used Finger of Death, Disintegrate, Chain Lightning...)

The party was protected against energy damage, each member had blindsight and darkvision (by spells) and was able to fight under water (pearl of sirenes, cloak of the manta ray, poly self, wild shape, alter self). The clerics completely flooded the dark altar chamber (via control water). The druid used his alter self ability to take a kuo'toa form and still being able to cast spells (I thought this would be possible). The DM denied spell casting because the druid has not prepared his spells as a kuo'toa and thus does not know how to speak the needed words. Only silent spells were allowed. So druid and wizard morphed into a giant octopus and orca, respectively, and went into melee combat vs. the enemy casters...

 

[hong]

Re: Re

If you think I am whining, then why bother posting?

Because it's fun.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

Celtavian: It's hard for us to not respond with an antagonistic "DUH!!" about your attitude towards this module. Perhaps this is our fault. It is common knowledge that RttToEE is supposed to be one of the most difficult meatgrinder adventures out there. It is NOT an average adventure. The module takes an average of (IIRC) 3 character deaths each into account, thats why there are so mant monsters. Obviouslly Monte wasn't playing around when he designed it. To us it seems a player would have to be incredibly dense to not have known this from the start, but stranger things have happened.

When I began running it I made this clear to my players and gave them the opportunity to make new characters so their cherished old characters wouldn't bite it. Some of them accepted, some didn't, but I tried to make sure they knew what they were getting into. It seems your DM didn't make this clear to you. In that case it's partially his fault. I don't think this makes the module bad, or the clerics with the Madness domain bad, or the crazy templates bad. It means your party went into RttToEE with different expectations than your DM was planning on providing. That is a communication problem plain and simple and I suggest you work it out.

The majority of groups I have read about on this forum and others knew what they were getting into. They were prepared for the difficulties and they loved it.

 

[Celtavian]

Re

Roland,

Nowhere, except perhaps in discussion threads about this module, does it say to expect at least 3 character deaths. Discussions threads my Dm and myself did not read.

It does not say on the back cover of the module to expect 3 character deaths per player. Though I have not looked inside the module, I am assuming the DM briefing didn't include such a statement either.

What you seem to presume is that my DM and the players should have read the various discussion threads concerning the module prior to purchasing it. I am sorry to say we did not.

The module was bought because of nostalgia. We all went through the original Temple of Elemental Evil, so we thought it would be fun to go through RttToEE.

We did not read alot about it prior to taking on the module. To my knowledge, the DM did not tell us to expect to die 3 times each.

I think your assumption that the DM and players should have known they were going to die multiple times is a bit presumptious.

 

[arwink]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but everything anyones ever told me about the original Temple lead me to believe that it, too, was a meatgrinder responsible for character deats?

 

[d12]

but...

All mods authors assume that the DM will alter the adventure to make it more fun. In my very humble opinon if you aren't having fun it is not the fault of this module. I don't say this to start a flame war but only to point out that after the 8th character death or so your DM should have done SOMETHING to reign it in - bring in an NPC cleric to boost the party power level, scale down an encounter here or there, etc... There really is something in RttToEE for everyone but the DM does have to modify it for his or her campagin (as is always the case with an mod).

Again - only my opinion.

 

[WizarDru]

Celtavian,

I think you are correct that you shouldn't have expected 3 deaths per character, and so forth, nor should you be expected to know that it is a meatgrinder, or read such assessments here or elsewhere.

I would posit, however, that your DM should know better. Unless he's not reading the module prior to using it, it should become abundantly clear from the first encounter with Utreshimon onwards that this module is dangerous. The moathouse was a scary place for my players when they went there...no lethalities, but there could have been very easily, if dice had gone differently. (in my game, they had the assasain with them, who the bard had sussed out, but he nearly killed the half-orc during the Utreshimon encounter). There are several spots in the moathouse where a TPK is possible, and the CRM and later only gets uglier. If your DM didn't want to change the module, then I think he wasn't really taking your group into account, or not setting your expectations appropriately.

Mind you, after the fifth or sixth death, I would have been much, MUCH more cautious and conservative inside the CRM, myself. I'm not sure if your game is more or less extreme...you appear to have had more than the normal amount of deaths amongst your fellows than is the norm...although not unreasonably moreso.

 

[Dark Dragon]

Re: but...

All mods authors assume that the DM will alter the adventure to make it more fun. In my very humble opinon if you aren't having fun it is not the fault of this module. I don't say this to start a flame war but only to point out that after the 8th character death or so your DM should have done SOMETHING to reign it in - bring in an NPC cleric to boost the party power level, scale down an encounter here or there, etc... There really is something in RttToEE for everyone but the DM does have to modify it for his or her campagin (as is always the case with an mod).

Again - only my opinion.

Well said. I agree.
I hope that our DM gets the hint from the players to use funny encounters from time to time.
I said some months ago that I like the module.
Currently, I can say: It's a nightmare (the DM does good work to involve friendly NPCs from former adventures - mostly to be sacrified by some evil cult...), because the party feels more or less helpless. Perhaps it's that what the DM had in mind (but it could also be some sort of accident...).
I hope that I can say in a few months: Damn hard, but at least we had fun in an exciting module.

 

[Wicht]

So, you're complaining about a published module because you lost gear to incorrect or house rules and seriously stupid players, is that about the size of it?

Woah!

#1 - I am not complaining about the module (I have yet to run it, though I do own it). In point of fact I was not complaining about a single thing.

#2 - I was just brainstorming ways to use up a cloak of resistance in answer to Hong's question. None of these have actually ever happened to any cloak of resistances I have ever owned. Nor was I paying particular attention to how likely any of them were. They were just possibilities (though in light of actual rules I guess the dispel magic one would not work).

 

[Ssendam69]

i'm running this game right now and i have noticed that many of the clerics are built less than optimally. Sure it would be easy enough for them to compensate for their madness but most of them haven't. Maybe, because, they're insane? Or their own personal reasons, whatever, they just aren't built that good.

I'm running this module as well, and I can tell you that although some of the lower end priests of Tharizdun might be less than optimally built, the higher end ones; such as Hedrack, the Triad, etc. are all built well enough that their committment to the Madness domain is not much of a hindrance to them.

Examples: Hedrack +11 Will save, The First +17 Will save, The Second +15 Will save, The Third +12 Will save.

So you see, the strongest of the clergy of Tharizdun might be weaker than a cleric the same level as them who doesn't utillize the Madness domain, but the advantages of the Madness domain still outweigh the disadvantages.