D&D 5E Rule of Three 4/4

[Li Shenron]

Some allow saves, some don't? Here's a better question: what determines whether a defender should use AC, a saving throw, an opposed attack roll, or (what the heck) another maneuver to oppose a fighter-maneuver? Is there a line drawn, and where is it?

They are simply trying to keep it open, so that they have more design space. Each maneuver has its own rules, just like spells do. After all, it's supposed that the player who chooses the Battlemaster subclass is interested in complexity.

The only thing I hope is that they they design maneuvers with narrative-associated mechanics, so that the use of AC/ST/else is determined by what makes most sense narratively. At least for core maneuvers, after core they can do what they want.

 

[ambroseji]

This sounds great to me. I'm glad they are addressing the "standard combat maneuver" debate by folding the fighter maneuvers into their standard attack. It's the the solution I have been anticipating, it should play out smoothly, and I feel it correlates to the rogue's cunning action in a way.

Action economy, such as it is, is one of the most defining aspects of d&d next classes. In my opinion, what a class does in addition to attacking sets its mechanical flavor right now. I'm a big fan of cunning action for that reason: it allows the rogue to be rogue-līke by giving the player a mechanic that allows for careful positioning each round, setting up for that sneak attack.

It sounds like the maneuvers will be similar, allowing the battlemaster fighter to 'dominate' the battlefield, not only with continuous damage output, but with control/buff effects at the same time.

I just hope that the battlemaster is allowed enough superiority dice to use several in an encounter without running out. If they keep the mechanics that warrior fighters get enhanced crits, I think that battlemasters need a lot of staying power to keep up with them. Passive crit range is quite strong.

My last thought is regarding maneuver feats. Again. I hope the battlemaster gets enough dice on its own so its not forced into these feats. On the other hand, i'm excited that the feature will be available for other classes. It will contribute a lot to allows diverse character concepts and is a nice "dabbling" option alongside multiclassing.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I suspect you can still spend an action to regain a superiority dice, and that the starting amount is still 2. The relentless ability at 19th level where they regain 2 if they have 0 at the start of the turn, might still be there.

 

[Li Shenron]

I just hope that the battlemaster is allowed enough superiority dice to use several in an encounter without running out. If they keep the mechanics that warrior fighters get enhanced crits, I think that battlemasters need a lot of staying power to keep up with them. Passive crit range is quite strong.

Not sure how to properly balance them together. At least at 3rd level, the Warrior has the benefit of critting 10% of the times (barring some corner case when a roll of 19 is a miss) instead of 5% of the times. This means that the benefit occurs on average 1 round every 20. It sounds definitely closer to 1/day than to 1/encounter!

But then, extra attacks kicks in and suddenly the improved critical happens twice as often, then three times as often...

 

[ambroseji]

Not sure how to properly balance them together. At least at 3rd level, the Warrior has the benefit of critting 10% of the times (barring some corner case when a roll of 19 is a miss) instead of 5% of the times. This means that the benefit occurs on average 1 round every 20. It sounds definitely closer to 1/day than to 1/encounter!

But then, extra attacks kicks in and suddenly the improved critical happens twice as often, then three times as often...

That's a good point. My experience is that my players build characters around the passive crit chance through dual-wielding and such. By 7th level, that's already 3 attacks per round at a 15% crit chance. I had two fighters built that way in the same session and they were critting a lot. Between the two on them it was nearly every round. Throw in advantage for any reason and suddenly it IS every round.

I suppose I would be happy with a small amount of superiority dice early on if they scale relatively quickly. I am also a big fan of the action to regain dice, making them true encounter powers (i.e. available as a limited resource every fight) as long as the fighter spends a few seconds to 'catch his breath' beforehand.

 

[Jester David]

I'm not a fan of the symmetry of 4e, where fighters got powers that were identical in design and use as spells. But I'm okay with fighters having powers, provided they work differently and don't break my suspension of disbelief; when the mundane human fighter starts doing superhuman or magical things it takes me out of the fantasy. Batman can do awesome things, things that stretch what is humanly possible, but once he does something superhuman he loses something of what makes him the goddamn Batman.

The maneuver system works, allowing fighters to be the best at things anyone can try. It' shooed but not magical and works differently than spells.
Really, it's not *that* different than the feats of 3e. Only they're baked in and not separate. which is nice as it makes them less generic.

 

[Li Shenron]

I'm not a fan of the symmetry of 4e, where fighters got powers that were identical in design and use as spells. But I'm okay with fighters having powers, provided they work differently and don't break my suspension of disbelief

Absolutely agree with that!

 

[Mistwell]

That's a good point. My experience is that my players build characters around the passive crit chance through dual-wielding and such. By 7th level, that's already 3 attacks per round at a 15% crit chance. I had two fighters built that way in the same session and they were critting a lot. Between the two on them it was nearly every round. Throw in advantage for any reason and suddenly it IS every round.

15% x 2 = 30%, so less than every three rounds.
Even with advantage every round (which doesn't happen) it would be 60%, so not every round.

 

[Iosue]

That's a good point. My experience is that my players build characters around the passive crit chance through dual-wielding and such. By 7th level, that's already 3 attacks per round at a 15% crit chance. I had two fighters built that way in the same session and they were critting a lot. Between the two on them it was nearly every round. Throw in advantage for any reason and suddenly it IS every round.

15% x 2 = 30%, so less than every three rounds.
Even with advantage every round (which doesn't happen) it would be 60%, so not every round.

He's got two guys with three shots at a 15% success rate each. That means 0.15 x 6 = 0.9, or just about every round.

 

[Mistwell]

He's got two guys with three shots at a 15% success rate each. That means 0.15 x 6 = 0.9, or just about every round.

No, he has 2 guys with 15% success TOTAL (he said that's their actual crit chance, not the crit chance of each attack). It's 5% each attack, and he multiplied 5% x the three attacks (which is not how that actually works by the way).