Rules Disagreement with my DM, please help!

[gfunk]

The situation:

Party is fighting an adult Shadow Dragon in a cave. The dragon has cast Deeper Darkness on itself, so when my PC goes to the mouth of the cave, she can't see squat. So she casts Limited Wish to replicate True Seeing, then casts Project Image into the cave, where she can see two other party members in melee with the dragon.

Next round, cast Bigby's Clenched Fist on the dragon.

The problem:

The Shadow Dragon has Blur and Mirror Image cast upon itself. Since I have True Seeing up, I can penetrate both illusions. However, the question is, can Bigby's fist ignore these illusions too?

My DM's ruling:

Since Bigby's hand uses its own attack roll (e.g. not based on your own strength or BAB), it cannot penentrate these illusions, even if you can. Therefore it suffers 20% miss per Blur and may hit a Mirror Image anyway.

My stance:

Under Bigby's fist it says that the hand's ability to detect invisible creatures is no better than yours. Seems clear to me, but my DM disagreed.

My request to you:

Any additional evidence/rules quotes you could provide? Sage advice?

Thanks!

 

[AGGEMAM]

I agree with your stance; 'no better' usually means 'equal to'.

 

[Mordane76]

Just because its ability to detect invisible creatures is no better than yours does not mean that it can't be worse than yours, just from the standpoint of reading the rule and applying simple logic to it. The statement doesn't necessarily imply that the spell's creation has the exact same benefits its caster has in regards to sensory enhancements. So, I think your GM is within his rights to rule the situation as he did.

Without the spell right in front of me, I have to ask -- does the hand move to any point you specify? If it moves exactly as you specify, but uses only its modifiers to make attacks, then I'd say there is a possibility that you are correct -- if you can direct the spell to points in space as you see fit, then the Mirror Image and Blur effects, as well as the darkness effect, should be useless against you and your Hand spell.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Just for argueing here is the spell.

Bigby's Clenched Fist

Evocation
Level: Sor/Wiz 8, Strength 8
Components: V, S, F/DF

As Bigby's interposing hand, except it moves and attacks as directed by the character. (The character directs it as a free action.) The floating hand can move up to 60 feet and can attack in the same round.Since this hand is directed by the character, its ability to notice or attack invisible or concealed creatures is no better than the character's.

The hand attacks once per round, and its attack bonus equals the character's level + the character's Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma modifier (for a wizard, cleric, or sorcerer, respectively), +11 for the hand's Strength score (33), -1 for being Large. The hand's damage is 1d8+12, and any creature struck must make a Fortitude save (against this spell's save DC) or be stunned for 1 round. A stunned creature can't act and loses any Dexterity bonus to AC. Attackers gain +2 bonuses to attack it.

NB: Emphasis added.

 

[Berk]

just from the standpoint of reading the rule and applying simple logic to it

NEVER apply logic when talking about magick. =o)

 

[IceBear]

Based on that emphasis, I'd have to side with gfunk.

IceBear

 

[Artoomis]

The bolded line above makes it pretty clear that the Hand attacks as well (or as poorly) as you do as regards invisible/concealed creatures. It's pretty clear that if you can accurately pick out your target, then you can accurately target the Hand.

 

[Darkness]

Since this hand is directed by the character, its ability to notice or attack invisible or concealed creatures is no better than the character's.

I think the underlined part is what's important here: The hand has no senses of its own, but rather is directed by the caster.

 

[kreynolds]

I've got your back on this, gfunk.

 

[AuraSeer]

IMO, that "no better than the character" line is there to distinguish the Clenched Fist from the lesser Bigby spells. Those spells have their own ability to perceive and identify creatures, regardless of invisibility, darkness, polymorph, and so on. The Interposing Hand, for instance, can always locate its desginated target, and automatically moves to interpose itself correctly.

The Fist lacks that power of automatic perception, since it is mentally directed by the character. But that control means that it moves and attacks exactly as the caster specifies. If you have True Seeing up, it seems clear that you can use its benefit in choosing how to direct the hand.

Your DM appears to be wrong. However, you should keep in mind that the DM is always right.