(Rules-Meta-YB) YB Items

[Zappo]

Don't you think that by (practically) preventing people from giving their items to anyone, we are placing quite a limit on certain situations that would make for good roleplaying? I don't think it would really hurt to give people the ability to give items, provided that they can't use an item with more powers than their tier and that they can't use more than one item per fight. It is very costly to make good items and giving them away will be a rare occurrance.

Also, what's the need of not letting a character make more than one item in his life? With the sheer amount of yen it costs to make them, it is unlikely that we will be flooded with items. Besides, if you can only use one item in a fight, there would be little point in making more than one.

Also, if we let people give items, then it could make sense for someone to make an item with, for example, a style he already knows. Like the spider circlet LT gave to MidKnight. It would be easier to make an item with a style that the fighter already knows, so it could cost a little less. The fighter could then use it as a gift, or sell it. It would still cost a lot to make, and therefore to buy, so there will not be much of this trading.

Finally, we could make one shot items, like the feather tokens. They would be neat, and it could be allowed to use them even in a fight where I'm using another item. Their cost should be much more than what a Sash would pay to purchase a power, but not so much that it would be more convenient to make a permanent item instead.

 

[Jackal]

I think it should be personal.

 

[Phoenix8008]

IMO, basing the item creation rules on Yen just gives Sashes too big of an advantage, Wicht.

This is why I had originally proposed that creating items or powering them up would cost ranks instead of Yen. Then it would be equal for all and IC it would really mean that a fighter was putting some of their very soul into the item to empower it. Just like in D&D they would pay with XP. If noone else agrees with me then at least make the Proffiteer power something that you can put into an item because that would be the very first power I would take just to be able to keep up with the Sashes in item empowering.

The Paths should be balanced within themselves without adding more advantage to one Path via another system like this.

As to the other question, I think that you should be able to give someone an item and have powers of their tier and lower still work, with other powers available as they increase in tiers.

I also like the idea of one-shot items like Tsin was giving out to people(which were empowered by sacrificing ranks of her experience by the way ). Maybe make the multiplier smaller for them so they are cheaper?

 

[Zappo]

I think it should be personal.

What's that "it"... the signature item? The fact that it's personal doesn't mean that noone should ever use it besides its creator. Literature is chock full of "personal" items that were given or stolen, less so of items traded or sold. Typical example would be the sword given from master to disciple for generations. Besides, considering that a good item can easily cost 50 yen or more to make, I don't think many people will really want to give away "their" item. They might however be willing to make and give an item as a prize, a bet, a gift, or a hundred other possibilities. For example, under the current rules, LT's tournament would have been impossible, or the prize would have had to be in money.

And, I think that one shot items should be included.

 

[Wicht]

Also, what's the need of not letting a character make more than one item in his life? With the sheer amount of yen it costs to make them, it is unlikely that we will be flooded with items. Besides, if you can only use one item in a fight, there would be little point in making more than one.

A character can make more than one item, freely, I just don't think one character possessing/i] multiple items is a good idea - its too unbalancing in this sort of game. As for making multiple items at one time and then picking and choosing which you want - the whole point of the increasing cost of additional powers is to put a cap (or a curve) on the amount of item related powers available to any one fighter. It just seemed a simple way to do it.

Also, if we let people give items, then it could make sense for someone to make an item with, for example, a style he already knows.

Well as the item sigs stack with the personal sigs, some might think it makes sense already to make an item with a sig one knows. Personally - I could see how giving items with one power might be neat, but I would put the cap on one myself, still I asked the question to see what the majority thought.

Finally, we could make one shot items, like the feather tokens. They would be neat, and it could be allowed to use them even in a fight where I'm using another item. Their cost should be much more than what a Sash would pay to purchase a power, but not so much that it would be more convenient to make a permanent item instead.

An item with a one shot power seems like a good idea until you start working out the mechanics of it. If you allow people to possess multiple one shot items then you get back into the hoarding problem (and huge character sigs) and the balancing issues. If you only allow one of them - why not just spend the yen on the more permenant item. I think the game needs to be fairly simple and thus the item rules (and creation rules) need to be fairly simple and standardized. If a person has enough money, they could buy "real" items for all their dojo students, thus giving their students a leg up already on the item game - there is nothing to prevent this. But if we open up the item rules too much we will soon have chaos, which is IMO what happened with the items before.

But if enough people want one shot items then we can look at the idea.

 

[Wicht]

IMO, basing the item creation rules on Yen just gives Sashes too big of an advantage, Wicht.
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The Paths should be balanced within themselves without adding more advantage to one Path via another system like this.

Well if the item rules are to be an integral part of the game, as I think was what those on the comittee wanted, with standardized rules, then the fact that the sash are able to have easier access to items can be considered integral to their path. Its kind of like wizards having easier access to scrolls than sorcerors.

As to the other question, I think that you should be able to give someone an item and have powers of their tier and lower still work, with other powers available as they increase in tiers.

So noted.

I also like the idea of one-shot items like Tsin was giving out to people(which were empowered by sacrificing ranks of her experience by the way ). Maybe make the multiplier smaller for them so they are cheaper?

I did consider making 1 rank =2 yen but decided against it, especially if we are going to let people give empowered items to others. I don't like, personally, the thought of retiring a character and using all their ranks to give away items of power before starting another character. It's probably just me but it just doesn't seem right somehow, kind of like a person quitting a game of monopoly and giving all their money and property to another person thereby ensuring their "chosen" wins the game. Still if enough disagree I will change it

 

[Left-handed Hummingbird]

Gosh... I dunno.

My first vote is for simplicity. One man, One item. I am strongly against one-shot items, or fighters having (the choice between) multiple items in a fight.

I don't think the roleplaying aspects hinges on whether an item has a specific power or not. It is after all roleplaying. Yet, of course, I understand that if an item has some mechanical value it becomes more meaningful.

Perhaps a compromise between conserving and removing the powers in a transferred item can be reached. Perhaps, the powers are dormant and need to be reactivated - perhaps a multiplier cheaper than normal?

I think it should stay Yen-based. If not there is no point in having Yen for the non-sash fighters, and Yen is almost XP giving the faithful old-time fighters a small edge. I like that.

 

[Zappo]

Ok, what about this: a fighter can have any number of items, but only one of them is considered as his "signature" item.
He can use all the powers of the "signature" item, and none of the others.
A character's first signature item is free, but if he chooses to change it, he drops a rank. Also, if a fighter somehow gets to have a signature item with more powers than his tiers, then only the first powers are available (the number of powers being his tier).

Basically, it's just what I've said until now, except that instead of choosing your item before the fight, you choose one and you're stuck with it unless you're willing to sacrifice a rank.

For one-shot items, ok, theorically there's a hoarding problem, but in practice I doubt that people will mass-produce one-shot items. Especially if they cost a significant amount of yen (though not as much as a permanent item would). I would make them cost as if they were the first power of a permanent item - 5 or 10 yen for your path's powers, 10 or 15 for powers out of your path. The advantage of course would be that they can be used whenever you want, adding up to your signature item.

With the current rarity of yen, there's no way anyone hoards them! They will remain something special.

 

[Zappo]

As I've already said, if you feel that sashes would become too powerful, then just limit their standard powers.

 

[Phoenix8008]

Well if the item rules are to be an integral part of the game, as I think was what those on the comittee wanted, with standardized rules, then the fact that the sash are able to have easier access to items can be considered integral to their path. Its kind of like wizards having easier access to scrolls than sorcerors.

I like the idea of the items rules being integral to the game, but when the Sash path was discussed and compared to the other paths for balance this system was not in place yet. The Sash path itself IS pretty well balanced with the other paths, but adding this on top of it after the fact shoots that balance right out the window.

As for comparing this to Wizards having access to Scrolls, you are right and wrong. Wotc didn't print the PHB with all the classes balanced and then in the DMG add in the advantage for Wizards to have easier access to scrolls. It was already balanced WITHIN the path. My question for people is this: Do you think that the Sash path is still balanced if these item creation rules go forward as is and are counted as part of the advantage to the being a Sash, or does the addition of this system as it is written make the Sash path unbalanced when compared to the other paths? Either way, the fact that Sashes get this advantage needs to be in with the rest of the Path info so that it's known.

I did consider making 1 rank =2 yen but decided against it, especially if we are going to let people give empowered items to others. I don't like personally the thought of retiring a character and using all their ranks to give away items of power before starting another character. Its just me but it just doesn't seem right somehow, kind of like a person quitting a game of monopoly and giving all their money and property to another person thereby ensuring their "chosen" wins the game. Still if enough disagree I will change it

Though I do think that people should be able to create more than one item, I agree with what you are saying in principle. There should be SOME limit on how many empowered items a character can have in existence at one time. Maybe the limit should be equal to the number of tiers that the fighter posesses? Then if they drop a tier after creating a new item for that tier, the item becomes deactivated until they gain the tier back? This would make sense to me without adding lots of complexity. It would prevent mass producing of items while still letting people make more than one if they want and can afford it.

What about this for one-shot items? (This may be too harsh for some but I sense that Wicht might therefore like it. ) THERE ARE NO ONE SHOT ITEMS! A fighter can create an item like normal and use it permanently forever more (once per fight I assume, even though this is not spelled out in the above rules as I remember and it should be limited thusly IMO), UNLESS he gives the item away. The person who was given the item may use any of it's powers ONCE, draining the item of that power forevermore. Therefore one-shot items are just permanent items that the creator gave to someone else who get to use the power once since the creators spirit isn't there to keep empowering it. What do you all think of that?

 

[Rathan]

I'm gonna have to go with niko on this subject..I think... with the acception of sashes.... it should be a choice of yen or ranks for the other paths to power items...... with sash...seeing as they lose rank very easily i'd say just yen for them.....but for everyone other path..I'd say losing rank or subranks for an item is a good idea because again it will slow down advancement for those who chose to do so...... as well..it might keep items in the hands of higher tiers..... seeing as how they have more ranks and subranks to forfit for an item....


what do you all think??? should we be able to spend ranks and/or yen to purchace items???

 

[Left-handed Hummingbird]

Yen. Definitely Yen. If not, you might as well scrap the money concept completely and make a "sash"-rank void of "real" money.

I don't think the Sash is going to become too powerful. I realize they were the "brokenest" path in 1.0, but it is another ball game. The flow of Yen is completely different. For one, there is no mercenary tactics any longer, second Sash'll need to keep yen to buffer their losses, third, everybody else is going to put their money into their items as soon as they can, thus, the sash can't pick quite as much from people as they used to. But most importantly; the sash can't buy powers inside fights any longer!

I believe the rules as presented by Wicht is on a whole balanced. I say "Go!"

 

[Zappo]

I agree with LHH, both on sashes and on the rules being balanced as they are. However, I'd really like to have the possibility to give and receive items, and to make one-shots. I still point out that a tournament with an item as prize will be impossible, for example...

 

[Sabaron]

I'd prefer items to be strictly personal.

Will it be possible to make different powers from the standard ones, so long as you (Wicht) believe they are well-balanced and the player is willing to change it if the item is found to be broken later?

The specific example I was thinking of is the Blood Cloth I bear. I'd like it to have some power against the people I've marked with it (defeated in battle). Naturally, it'll start clean after the reset. I was thinking something along the lines of "Sabaron negates the first flag struck against him by foes marked with the Blood Cloth", similar to Dead Healthy, but more limited. What do you think of this power?

 

[Berandor]

Yen should be used to power items. Only Yen. Otherwise, I wouldn't really see the reason for yen anymore; items are the only thing that keeps me on yen course.

Items that become one-shot items when given away is a nice idea, Niko.

players should definitely be kept at one item each.

Berandor

 

[Wicht]

What about this for one-shot items? (This may be too harsh for some but I sense that Wicht might therefore like it. ) THERE ARE NO ONE SHOT ITEMS! A fighter can create an item like normal and use it permanently forever more (once per fight I assume, even though this is not spelled out in the above rules as I remember and it should be limited thusly IMO), UNLESS he gives the item away. The person who was given the item may use any of it's powers ONCE, draining the item of that power forevermore. Therefore one-shot items are just permanent items that the creator gave to someone else who get to use the power once since the creators spirit isn't there to keep empowering it. What do you all think of that?

Now this I could go for
That is if others like it - and IMO provided the item can not have more charges than the person has tiers and once the charges are used it remains a "real" item and thus a person cannot have both it and another item.

Also - I was just looking at the Sash path again and if you go back, and read what I wrote then, I said the Sash path at early stages had the advantage of making money easier and thus being able to buy an item easier. I did try and balance the path with items in mind actually from the get-go. Compare the fight changing powers of the sash to those of other fighters and I think you will see the sash lose out power wise... But can still make Yen more easily.

 

[Wicht]

I'd prefer items to be strictly personal.

Will it be possible to make different powers from the standard ones, so long as you (Wicht) believe they are well-balanced and the player is willing to change it if the item is found to be broken later?

The specific example I was thinking of is the Blood Cloth I bear. I'd like it to have some power against the people I've marked with it (defeated in battle). Naturally, it'll start clean after the reset. I was thinking something along the lines of "Sabaron negates the first flag struck against him by foes marked with the Blood Cloth", similar to Dead Healthy, but more limited. What do you think of this power?

Powers like this are interesting and I really think we should have some powers unique to items - the main problem is working out how to pay for them, how they work, etc. in a simple and standard manner

 

[Zappo]

Now this I could go for .

Ah-hem. Phoenix's proposal implies exactly what *I* said about one-shot items.

I would make them cost as if they were the first power of a permanent item - 5 or 10 yen for your path's powers, 10 or 15 for powers out of your path.

 

[Wicht]

Ah-hem. Phoenix's proposal implies exactly what *I* said about one-shot items.

Yes I guess it is close to what you said in which case I agree with you too - but the only difference being he made it clear they are only temporary when you give them away. The way you worded it made me scratch my head and wonder why anyone would choose to make the temporary item at the same price.

 

[Zappo]

Yes I guess it is close to what you said in which case I agree with you too - but the only difference being he made it clear they are only temporary when you give them away. The way you worded it made me scratch my head and wonder why anyone would choose to make the temporary item at the same price.

Because they'd be able to give them away, and because in my original text I proposed to let them be used even by a fighter who already has a "signature item".

But the final effect is the same - to make a one-shot item you spend 5 to 15 yen, depending on the power and whether it's in your path.

With that kind of cost, it is impossible for people to hoard them to the point where they become a balance issue. They are terribly, horribly ineffective, cost-wise. I think it should be allowed to use them in conjunction with a fighter's permanent item ("signature item"). Otherwise, only fighters without items will be able to use them!