Rules of Grappling

[daemonslye]

But a successful opposed check is the person who rolls higher, regardless of who initiated the check, by the discussion of opposed checks in the beginning of the PHB (sorry Mario, but my PHB is in another castle! : p ) ...

At least, by memory it is. Can someone quote me the opposed checks paragraph in the PHB? Thanks in advance!

DISARM PHB p.155

Step 2: Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a twohanded weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a –4 penalty. (An unarmed strike
is considered a light weapon, so you always take a penalty when trying
to disarm an opponent by using an unarmed strike.) If the combatants
are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on
the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. If the targeted
item isn’t a melee weapon, the defender takes a –4 penalty on the
roll.

SUNDER PHB p.158

Step 2: Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed
attack rolls with your respective weapons. The wielder of a twohanded
weapon on a sunder attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and
the wielder of a light weapon takes a –4 penalty. If the combatants
are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack
roll of +4 per difference in size category.

(Gratuitous Cut-N-Paste) GRAPPLE PHB p156

GRAPPLE
Grappling means wrestling and struggling hand-to-hand. It’s tricky
to perform, but sometimes you want to pin foes instead of killing
them, and sometimes you have no choice in the matter. For
monsters, grappling can mean trapping you in a toothy maw (the
purple worm’s favorite tactic) or holding you down so it can claw
you to pieces (the dire lion’s trick).
Grapple Checks
Repeatedly in a grapple, you need to make opposed grapple checks
against an opponent. A grapple check is like a melee attack roll. Your
attack bonus on a grapple check is:
Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier
Special Size Modifier: The special size modifier for a grapple
check is as follows: Colossal +16, Gargantuan +12, Huge +8, Large +4,
Medium +0, Small –4, Tiny –8, Diminutive –12, Fine –16. Use this
number in place of the normal size modifier you use when making
an attack roll.
Starting a Grapple
To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a
grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple
attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at
successively lower base attack bonuses).
Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity
from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of
opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters
do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to
grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the
attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step
2.
Step 2: Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If
you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed,
proceed to Step 3.
Step 3: Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If
you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal
damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.
If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an
attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger
than you are.
In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check
modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie.
Step 4: Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later
rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is
free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)
Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from
threatening opponents, but not from your target.
If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the
grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again,
you must begin at Step 1.

 

[GPEKO]

Improved grab means the following:
1) You may automatically make a grapple check, without needing the touch attack or provoking an AoO, whenever you hit with one of your attacks. For a giant ant, this means that whenever it's bite attack hits, it causes bite damage, and then starts a grapple from step 3 onwards.

There's something a lot of people don't seem seem to know about improved grab.

Improved Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

So your giant ant soldier could only use is improved grab against small or smaller creatures.

 

[El Ravager]

Ah, actually slightly incorrect. If one grappler has the other pinned, there is no chance of hitting the incorrect target if it is the one being pinned, else it's the default rules alright, which clearly indicate it's a 50% chance to hit a given target. On a missed 50%, you hit the other target. Annoyingly it assumes only two grapplers.

I would be interested in the page number for that. Its an elusive rule that I can never find in the book.

Thanks

======
El Rav

 

[Black Knight Irios]

PHB 3.5 P.151 Table 8-6

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

I would be interested in the page number for that. Its an elusive rule that I can never find in the book.

Thanks

======
El Rav

I went and found it in the SRD 3.5 (no books at work ) and it's there. Look under combat modifiers and examine the tables, looking for 'grappling'.

Of course, that raised a new question for me, so I'll be starting a new thread on that


And I quite agree, there should be RotG series on Grappling. It's worse than Sneak Attacking!

 

[shilsen]

Ah, actually slightly incorrect. If one grappler has the other pinned, there is no chance of hitting the incorrect target if it is the one being pinned, else it's the default rules alright, which clearly indicate it's a 50% chance to hit a given target. On a missed 50%, you hit the other target. Annoyingly it assumes only two grapplers.

Actually you're also slightly incorrect. The above 50% chance to hit one of two grapplers is only true if making a ranged attack. Check PHB 3.5 P.151 Table 8-6 as Black Knight Irios mentioned above. The section under melee attacks only mentions the target losing Dex bonus to AC. The section under ranged attacks mentions the loss of Dex bonus and adds that there is a random chance of hitting the wrong target.

By the RAW, if your three buddies are grappling an orc next to you (with nobody being pinned) and you are not part of the grapple, you can make a melee attack and target the orc perfectly.

 

[Tilla the Hun (work)]

You're quite right - I was mis-reading the table in the SRD. My apologies.

 

[Otterscrubber]

Let's say I'm fighting a Pit Fiend. It hits me with all its attacks and then with its tail, inflicting standard tail damage (2d8+6). It then starts a grapple and wins, inflicting more damage, but how much? 2d8+6 again? Then a constrict for 2d8+26.

Next round how many grapple attacks does it get against me? It normally has 2 claws, 2 wings, a bite and a tail attack for a total of 6 attacks. Does it get to make 6 grapple checks? Does it do tail damage + constrict every time or does it do the appropriate claw, wing or bite damage + constrict every time? Or does it only do normal damage and get one constrict damage for its tail on its tail's attack?

 

[Saeviomagy]

Not quite. Constrict damage only applies when the monster makes a successful grapple check, not when it's resisting a grapple check that you make.

You make a grapple check each and every time something happens in a grapple.

Given that this mirrors what happens when a real-life creature constricts something (ie - every movement merely gives it a chance to wrap up tighter), I'd say this is how it works.

And it only does grapple damage + constrict damage if it has Improved Grab.

(See the Constrict ability on page 307 of the 3.5 MM)

The grapple rules say that upon a successful first grapple check, you deal unarmed damage.

The constrict rules say that whenever you succeed at a grapple check, you deal constriction damage.

The mistake I made was that someone using improved grab DOESN'T apply unarmed damage on the initial grapple check UNLESS it has constrict.

IOW - if you grapple someone and you have constrict (but NOT improved grab), when you win the initial grapple check, you cause unarmed damage PLUS constrict damage.

If you grapple someone and you have improved grab, but NOT constrict, you cause damage with the initial attack, but then do not subsequently cause damage upon a successful initial grapple check.

If you have both, you cause damage with the attack, then unarmed damage AND constrict damage with the initial grapple check.

I'll update my post.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Let's say I'm fighting a Pit Fiend. It hits me with all its attacks and then with its tail, inflicting standard tail damage (2d8+6). It then starts a grapple and wins, inflicting more damage, but how much? 2d8+6 again? Then a constrict for 2d8+26.

As far as I can work out, and using my suggestions above:

A pit fiend hits you with all it's attacks, then it's tail. It then starts a grapple with a free action, makes a grapple check, wins, inflicts tail damage, then inflicts the constrict damage.

Next round how many grapple attacks does it get against me? It normally has 2 claws, 2 wings, a bite and a tail attack for a total of 6 attacks. Does it get to make 6 grapple checks? Does it do tail damage + constrict every time or does it do the appropriate claw, wing or bite damage + constrict every time? Or does it only do normal damage and get one constrict damage for its tail on its tail's attack?

It can either
a) do iterative grapple checks at +30/+25/+20/+15, causing it's tail attack damage PLUS its constrict damage.
b) use those iterative grapple checks for other things, and cause just the constrict damage (ie - it can pin + constrict)
c) use it's full attack routine (2 wings, 2 claws, bite) minus the tail (which is grappling), with all attacks at -4, and only against the grappled subject
d) do other stuff as in my original post.