Rules of Grappling

[Gansk]

As far as I can work out, and using my suggestions above:

A pit fiend hits you with all it's attacks, then it's tail. It then starts a grapple with a free action, makes a grapple check, wins, inflicts tail damage, then inflicts the constrict damage.

It can either
a) do iterative grapple checks at +30/+25/+20/+15, causing it's tail attack damage PLUS its constrict damage.
b) use those iterative grapple checks for other things, and cause just the constrict damage (ie - it can pin + constrict)
c) use it's full attack routine (2 wings, 2 claws, bite) minus the tail (which is grappling), with all attacks at -4, and only against the grappled subject
d) do other stuff as in my original post.

My interpretation is slightly different -

When the tail attacks hits and does damage, roll the free grapple check. If the pit fiend wins, it has established a hold, but does not constrict until the next round.

On its initiative next round, it can either
a) do iterative grapple checks at +35/+30/+25/+20. If it wins any of those checks, it does tail damage + constrict damage.

b) do iterative grapple checks at +15/+10/+5/+0. If it wins any of those checks, it does the same damage as above. It also can threaten other squares and attack other opponents with everything except its tail.

c) attack the grappled opponent with all of its natural weapons at -4 to hit. Any hits do normal damage with no constrict damage added.

d) use a spell-like ability with a successful concentration check (DC 20+level)

e) move if the grappled opponent weighs less than 25000 lbs, or fly if the opponent weighs less than 5000 lbs. Due to improved grab, no grapple check is required. The movement rate is dependent on the weight.

f) do iterative grapple checks according to option a or b above to pin. I'm not sure about applying constrict damage if the pit fiend succeeds in a pin, but as soon as it pins, it can use option a or b to do damage with the rest of the iterative grapple checks. Pinning is primarily to help others hit the grappled opponent, as he now has a 0 dex, -4 AC, and sneak attack damage is allowed. Plus the pit fiend can prevent the pinned opponent from speaking and/or use disarm attempts to grab well secured items on the opponent.

g) do iterative grapple checks according to option a or b above to use the opponent's light weapon against him. Each time it wins any of the checks, it can roll to hit at -4. If it hits, it does the damage of the light weapon plus the pit fiend's strength bonus (+13).

 

[Saeviomagy]

My interpretation is slightly different -

When the tail attacks hits and does damage, roll the free grapple check. If the pit fiend wins, it has established a hold, but does not constrict until the next round.

Under 'improved grab'
"A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack."

While the next sentence does contradict this one, it only does so by suggesting that even creatures without constrict cause damage on the initial hold. It's very unclear whether a non-constricting creature causes extra damage from a hold. What IS clear is that a constricting creature certainly DOES cause this extra damage.

On its initiative next round, it can either
a) do iterative grapple checks at +35/+30/+25/+20. If it wins any of those checks, it does tail damage + constrict damage.

Correct

b) do iterative grapple checks at +15/+10/+5/+0. If it wins any of those checks, it does the same damage as above. It also can threaten other squares and attack other opponents with everything except its tail.

correct

c) attack the grappled opponent with all of its natural weapons at -4 to hit. Any hits do normal damage with no constrict damage added.

d) use a spell-like ability with a successful concentration check (DC 20+level)

e) move if the grappled opponent weighs less than 25000 lbs, or fly if the opponent weighs less than 5000 lbs. Due to improved grab, no grapple check is required. The movement rate is dependent on the weight.

All correct, except he can only fly if the opponent weighs less than 2768lbs (this is the light load of a pit fiend), and move (albeit at a reduced rate) if the opponent weighs less than 41600 (his drag load)

f) do iterative grapple checks according to option a or b above to pin. I'm not sure about applying constrict damage if the pit fiend succeeds in a pin, but as soon as it pins, it can use option a or b to do damage with the rest of the iterative grapple checks. Pinning is primarily to help others hit the grappled opponent, as he now has a 0 dex, -4 AC, and sneak attack damage is allowed. Plus the pit fiend can prevent the pinned opponent from speaking and/or use disarm attempts to grab well secured items on the opponent.

Personally I think that he causes constrict damage upon pin attempts (or any other grapple check).

g) do iterative grapple checks according to option a or b above to use the opponent's light weapon against him. Each time it wins any of the checks, it can roll to hit at -4. If it hits, it does the damage of the light weapon plus the pit fiend's strength bonus (+13).

Yup, that's right. Except as per F, he'd cause constrict damage when he succeeded.

 

[Armadon63]

Ok I have a question now. My buddy is gonna run a game where we are vampires. I have a cleric and he took Improved unarmed strike and Improved grapple. Do i get to use the slam attack and then grapple in the same round?

 

[Legildur]

Ok I have a question now. My buddy is gonna run a game where we are vampires. I have a cleric and he took Improved unarmed strike and Improved grapple. Do i get to use the slam attack and then grapple in the same round?

Nope. Improved Grapple does not work the same as Improved Grab, unfortunately.

 

[Armadon63]

Nope. Improved Grapple does not work the same as Improved Grab, unfortunately.

Its cool. It just would have sucked for the NPC's to get energy drained and bitten in the same round. hehe -2 levels plus the 1d4 con drain.

 

[Anubis]

Befuddling . . .

Clearing this makes pit fiends and vampires much MUCH more dangerous than I ever thought!

A vampire with iterative attacks can smack a pinned opponent and suck away upwards of eight levels. Tell me, what incentive does a vampire have to use blood drain when energy drain obviously does so much more damage?

As for the rest, well, befuddling . . .

One big question: does the attack, touch, grapple check, initial damage, and move all take place in the same round? How much exactly can happen in a single round when starting a grapple, depending on the abilities involved?

 

[shilsen]

A vampire with iterative attacks can smack a pinned opponent and suck away upwards of eight levels. Tell me, what incentive does a vampire have to use blood drain when energy drain obviously does so much more damage?

Energy drain doesn't work that way. It had already been clarified in the FAQ in 3.0, and the 3.5 MM description of the vampire specifically says that it "can use its energy drain ability once per round".

 

[Li Shenron]

Befuddling . . .

Don't tell me, I think the grapple rules are the worst-written part of the corebooks...

One big question: does the attack, touch, grapple check, initial damage, and move all take place in the same round? How much exactly can happen in a single round when starting a grapple, depending on the abilities involved?

At least I can tell you that this is all basically part of the same action. To be more precise, the touch attack is PART of an attack action (either a single standard action, or one of the attacks in a full attack action), and the grapple check to hold and deal damage is itself a free action.

 

[Anubis]

Energy drain doesn't work that way. It had already been clarified in the FAQ in 3.0, and the 3.5 MM description of the vampire specifically says that it "can use its energy drain ability once per round".

Thanks for pointing that out! Never saw that one in the rules before! That most definitely balances things in this case!