Rules of the Game: Sneak Attacks part 3

[RigaMortus]

I'm still curious, who determines when someone threatens (see my post a few replies above)?

 

[Hypersmurf]

If a Fighter wielding a longsword approaches, and gets within 5 feet on an orc, does he threaten the orc simply because (a) he has a melee weapon and (b) he is within 5' of the orc?

Absolutely.

"You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action."

Perception has nothing to do with it.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

Absolutely.

"You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action."

Perception has nothing to do with it.

-Hyp.

Correct.

Perception only come into play with flanking, and then only because the reason why you get a bonus has perception all wrapped up in it.

 

[tauton_ikhnos]

But why does he need to look for openings? He's not planning on attacking.

Is he prepared to attack? Has he set himself up to avail himself of opportunities? He may not make good on it, but that counts as planning in my book.

Why does he need to keep up his defenses? He's invisible. Nobody knows he's there.

If he's not defending himself, and someone has true seeing up, does that mean that he doesn't get his DEX bonus to AC against them if they haven't attacked him up to now? How do you even justify that in the system?

Or do you think that just maybe, his defenses are just as much up as they would be normally, because he knows that could happen?

Shifting around for advantage - what advantage? He's not fighting anyone. He's just hanging around invisible. And by the game definition of the term, he "threatens" any square within reach, since they're squares into which he could make a melee attack.

Okay, next time, read my post before you respond. The visible guy was shifting around for advantage. The invisible guy, in the post you quoted, was shifting around to avoid bumping people.

It was as clear as I could make it.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Perception only come into play with flanking...

Not in the definition of flanking in the RAW.

And even the flavour examples for creatures who are immune to flanking don't always involve perception.

A beholder is immune to flanking because it can see in all directions.

A grimlock - which is blind, but has blindsight and senses all creatures in a 40' radius - is not immune to flanking.

An elemental is immune to flanking because it has no discernible front or back. Since this is a trait of the elemental type, it applies even to, say, a high level Elemental Savant... who does have a discernible front and back.

An ooze or a gibbering mouther cannot be flanked because of their amorphous form. But a chaos beast can.

And then there's the hivemind fiasco with creatures like Formians.

It's never stated in the Core rules that perception on the part of the opponent is required for flanking to be valid. An unconscious orc on the floor can, by the rules as written, be flanked. (For example, if someone doesn't want to take the FRA to perform a CDG, they could still benefit from the +2.)

Certain creatures use perception-based abilities to become immune to flanking (beholder, xorn, etc). But certain other creatures use non-perception-based abilities to become immune to flanking.

-Hyp.

 

[BSF]

I'm still curious, who determines when someone threatens (see my post a few replies above)?

RigaMortus,
To me it sounds like you are using "threaten" in the general verb sense.

Threatened squares represent where a character could choose to make a melee attack. So yes, a fighter with a long sword within 5' of an orc threatens that square. Just as the orc threatens the square with the fighter if it has a non-reach melee weapon, or improved unarmed strike. If either (potential) combatant does something to offer up an AOO, then the other can choose to act on that opportunity.

This is different from viewing somebody as a potential opponent. Technically, when your big fighter is holding the front line and the party cleric steps up to cast a spell on him, the cleric is taking an action to draw an AOO, unless he casts defensively. However, the expectation is that your ally will not use that opportunity. Your perception of who is threatening, as opposed to who's threatened area you might be in, is what allows you to decide what actions to take that might draw an AOO.

 

[Artoomis]

Not in the definition of flanking in the RAW...-Hyp.

I think the PHB has text indicating that you get a flanking bonus based partially upon the flanked character perceptions. It's "flavor text," admittedly, and was left out of the SRD.

It's the justification for invisible oppoenents not helping to flank an opponent.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Is he prepared to attack? Has he set himself up to avail himself of opportunities? He may not make good on it, but that counts as planning in my book.

He doesn't have to set himself up. He doesn't have to be prepared. Once his first action has occured in combat, if he is holding a weapon, he can avail himself of AoOs whether he was "prepared" for them or not.

If he's not defending himself, and someone has true seeing up, does that mean that he doesn't get his DEX bonus to AC against them if they haven't attacked him up to now?

Your Dex bonus applies to any attack it is not denied against.

Whether he's dancing around in his square or not, if he's attacked by someone he can see, he can dodge.

Okay, next time, read my post before you respond. The visible guy was shifting around for advantage. The invisible guy, in the post you quoted, was shifting around to avoid bumping people.

But who's he going to bump into in his own square?

He only needs to move if someone tries to enter his square and he wishes to let them past. Until and unless that arises, he can stand still.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I think the PHB has text indicating that you get a flanking bonus based partially upon the flanked character perceptions. It's "flavor text," admittedly, and was left out of the SRD.

I'm away from my PHB, but I don't recall ever noticing anything like that any time this has come up in the past.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

He doesn't have to set himself up. He doesn't have to be prepared. Once his first action has occured in combat, if he is holding a weapon, he can avail himself of AoOs whether he was "prepared" for them or not.

The game presumption is that he is "prepared" to take advantage of such opportunities all the time - it's part of the simplified combat system.

Your Dex bonus applies to any attack it is not denied against.
Whether he's dancing around in his square or not, if he's attacked by someone he can see, he can dodge.

More to the point, I think, is that the simplified game system assume you are ALWAYS defending youself when you are capable of doing so.