Rulings on Ray of enfeeblement

[Legildur]

Note that it can also be removed by chugging a potion of lesser restoration. (You could cast lesser restoration too but the 3 round casting time pretty much removes that from contention).

That was pointed out in posts #56-58 above. And frankthedm (post #58) also made the point that the potion would have to have been specified at the time of brewing that it was specifically for removing strength penalties (one of 12 possible variations).

 

[Egres]

I had a lot of fun with that. One interesting thing about the spell is that it gives the target a penalty, which means that it can affect beings that would otherwise be unharmed by ability damage (e.g. undead, constructs).

A construct possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
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Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects.

 

[Infiniti2000]

If you want to power-down the spell, then change the effect.

Fwiw, I did. I did it explicitly because my players thought it too powerful after a night hag with empower spell-like ability (ray of enfeeblement) became a semi-recurring villain.

 

[Deset Gled]

Some slightly random thoughts...

When 3.0 was around, there was a big problem with the buff spells (Bull's Strength, etc) because they both lasted too long, and could be empowered and maximized to grant better bonuses than items. In the 3.5 revision, they were revised specifically to have both a shorter duration, and have a fixed benefit so metamagic wouldn't improve the effects. The damage/penalty dealing equivalents, though, were left with a variable effect.

If you think that RoE is too powerful, do you think it could be fixed by giving it a straight -4 or -6 penalty to Str? If so what value do you think is appropriate?

Personally, I don't think that the RoE spell is problematic, but I'm beginning to think that making it a fixed effect might be more "fair".

 

[Infiniti2000]

Should I take it you dislike the Quicken Spell feat then?

I'm disappointed with metamagic in general, yes. I am still working on a solution for that.

Because there are very very few spells in the game worth quickening at the moment. Ray of Enfeeblement is one of the few 1st level spells that, when quickened is worth the 5th level slot for a character who can actually cast it. (The other ones being magic missile and, depending upon the interpretation of the wording of Quicken Spell, Enlarge Person).

IMO, the best 1st-level spell to quicken is true strike. The mage who plays alongside my cleric uses a quickened true strike followed by a disintegrate to GREAT effect. It's so nice, he usually has 2 of each prepared.

For high level casters, wonderful first level combat spells are spells that have more of an effect on combat than spending a full round action to pick your nose or that are worth a high level slot in quickened or empowered form. It's a good thing that they exist, otherwise there wouldn't be any point in the Quicken and (to a lesser extent) Empower Spell feats. (There are also, and appropriately so, wonderful 1st level utility spells like endure elements and alarm that really only come into their own at high levels when the opportunity cost is lower--I presume you're not objecting to them).

I object to everything that I think is overpowered, but I don't understand why you think I might consider objecting to endure elements or alarm. Alarm is an example of a fantastic spell usable at any level, but is always only a 1st-level spell in power. Spells that scale don't always do so gracefully, and I think ability damaging/draining/penalty spells are the worst offenders (e.g. I have banned touched of idiocy and modified the dex damaging ones from Frostburn).

 

[Infiniti2000]

If you think that RoE is too powerful, do you think it could be fixed by giving it a straight -4 or -6 penalty to Str? If so what value do you think is appropriate?

I went for -4 because I thought that equitable to bull's strength, but I could be convinced that -6 is acceptable.

 

[Grog]

Ray of Enfeeblement is the most broken spell in the game. Period. It's not too bad at lower levels, but at higher levels, the fact that it doesn't allow a saving throw turns any encounter with a single meele-based creature into a complete joke. With one ranged touch attack (ridiculously easy at high levels) you can slap a -10 penalty to Str on that fighter charging you and laugh as he flails ineffectually at your tank.

In fact, let's do some quick math here:

15th level fighter w/greatsword and 26 Str - +to hit is 15 BAB, 8 Str, 2 focus and 4 magic for +29/+24/+19 and 2d6+20 (w/greater weapon spec) damage.

Swinging at 15th level tank with AC 32 (12 +5 mithril full plate, 3 Dex, +3 ring of protection, +3 amulet of natural armor, +1 dodge feat), with 150 hit points.

Off the cuff calculations ignoring crits:

First attack hits 90% of the time for 27 average damage = 24.3 average damage
Second attack hits 65% of the time, same damage = 17.55 average damage
Third attack hits 40% of the time, same damage = 10.8 average damage

That's 53 damage per round on average. He could drop the tank in 3 rounds.

Now hit him with a Ray of Enfeeblement dropping his Strength to 16. This makes him +24/+19/+14 doing 2d6+12 damage.

First attack now hits 65% of the time for 19 average damage = 12.35 average damage
Second attack now hits 40% of the time, same damage = 7.6 average damage
Third attack now hits 15% of the time, same damage = 2.85 average damage

That's 23 average damage per round. Ray of enfeeblement cuts his damage by more than half. It'll now take him 7 rounds to drop the tank, and he'll be dead long before then.

One first level spell turns this fearsome opponent into a complete joke. Empower it and things get even more laughable.

This is simply way too much impact for a first level spell to have. It needs to be severely toned down.

 

[Deset Gled]

In fact, let's do some quick math here:

15th level fighter w/greatsword and 26 Str - +to hit is 15 BAB, 8 Str, 2 focus and 4 magic for +29/+24/+19 and 2d6+20 (w/greater weapon spec) damage.

...

That's 53 damage per round on average. He could drop the tank in 3 rounds.

Now hit him with a Ray of Enfeeblement dropping his Strength to 16. This makes him +24/+19/+14 doing 2d6+12 damage.

...

That's 23 average damage per round. Ray of enfeeblement cuts his damage by more than half. It'll now take him 7 rounds to drop the tank, and he'll be dead long before then.

I think you made a mistake there. Damage should be 2d6+15 after the RoE for a -10 penalty to strength. And, to be fair, if you're calculating averages for damage, you should also be calculating the average penalty on RoE, which is 8.5 at maximum. This would pring damage to 2d6+16.

Thats 35 average damage per round. It'll take him 5 rounds to drop the tank. It's bad, but it doesn't cause outright death. At that level, the fighter is probably thanking his god that your wizard didn't cast Evard's Black Tentacles.

 

[Grog]

I think you made a mistake there. Damage should be 2d6+15 after the RoE for a -10 penalty to strength.

No mistake. A greatsword is a two-handed weapon, which gives 1.5x your Str bonus in damage. With a 26 Str, you get +12 per hit. With a 16 Str, you get +4 per hit.

And, to be fair, if you're calculating averages for damage, you should also be calculating the average penalty on RoE, which is 8.5 at maximum. This would pring damage to 2d6+16.

Thats 35 average damage per round. It'll take him 5 rounds to drop the tank. It's bad, but it doesn't cause outright death.

Damage would be 2d6+14 and the chance to hit would be one better. So instead of cutting his damage to less than half of what it was originally, the spell would "only" cut it in half (give or take a bit). It's not "outright death," but like I said, it turns a fearsome opponent into a complete joke. And this is a first level spell we're talking about here.

At that level, the fighter is probably thanking his god that your wizard didn't cast Evard's Black Tentacles.

Not really. Evard's cast by a 15th level wizard has a grapple check of +23. A 15th level fighter with a 26 Str has a grapple check of +23. If he took the Improved Grapple feat (pretty much a no-brainer for a fighter of that level) he'd have a +27. He only has to make one grapple check (with the odds in his favor) and he can move out of the area of effect.

And there are other ways to deal with Evard's, too. Have a Ring of Freedom of Movement. Be flying. You have options for dealing with the fourth level spell; you have no options for dealing with the first level spell. That's broken.

 

[IanB]

I don't know that I consider it broken, but it is pretty strong.

The one thing that seems to be a big assumption that I don't think people should be making, though, is that it is near-automatic for a touch attack with a ray to hit.

A target with a touch AC of 10 who has cover and is in melee is effectively sitting at an 18 AC. An 18 AC is not anything like automatic for your average mid level wizard to hit. Say he's level 10, and we'll give him a nice dex of 16. He's shooting his ranged touch attacks at +8, which means he needs a 10 to hit. That's 55%, which isn't anywhere near automatic. Compare that to his chances of taking out his 10th level fighter opponent *entirely* with a tasha's hideous laughter, which probably has somthing like a 16 or 17 DC at that level vs. a will save of around 4 or 5, and it doesn't look that bad to me.

Yes, this is just one random comparison at just one level, but I think it matches the reality of the games I've played in pretty well.

EDIT: Fixed a grammar error.