Rulings on Ray of enfeeblement

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I don't follow you here. Spell stacking is talking more about applying bonuses from different spells, and how those don't stack;

... Keep reading.

Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves. More generally, two bonuses of the same type don’t stack even if they come from different spells (or from effects other than spells; see Bonus Types, above).

...

Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths: In cases when two or more identical spells are operating in the same area or on the same target, but at different strengths, only the best one applies.

 

[Ciaran]

2nd, as in, bull's strength. If +4 STR is fair at 2nd spell level, why is up to -11 STR fair at 1st spell level? I'm not talking caster level, but spell level.

1) If you have a melee combatant to cast it on, bull's strength is almost always useful in any combat. Ray of enfeeblement can easily prove to be relatively useless in combat if you're not facing a small number of melee combatants.

2) Bull's strength helps for the entire encounter, and perhaps for multiple encounters if they take place in quick succession. Ray of enfeeblement is only useful until you've eliminated the target.

3) The benefits of bull's strength are automatic. Ray of enfeeblement can fail, especially against opponents with spell resistance or high Reflex saves.

 

[Infiniti2000]

1) If you have a melee combatant to cast it on, bull's strength is almost always useful in any combat. Ray of enfeeblement can easily prove to be relatively useless in combat if you're not facing a small number of melee combatants.

I hope you don't suggest that RoE would not be effective if you reduce the opponent wizard to a 1 STR.

2) Bull's strength helps for the entire encounter, and perhaps for multiple encounters if they take place in quick succession. Ray of enfeeblement is only useful until you've eliminated the target.

This argument can be paraphrased, "Improving your strength is more powerful than reducing an opponent's strength by up to almost triple the amount." Is this accurate?

3) The benefits of bull's strength are automatic. Ray of enfeeblement can fail, especially against opponents with spell resistance or high Reflex saves.

Well, since you've been discussing putting the bull's strength on someone else, let me point out that if that someone else has SR, then it's not automatic either. I'm curious, though, what does a reflex save have to do with anything?

 

[KarinsDad]

Well, since you've been discussing putting the bull's strength on someone else, let me point out that if that someone else has SR, then it's not automatic either. I'm curious, though, what does a reflex save have to do with anything?

Bull Strength is automatic if a high SR target is willing.

As for Reflex Save, I think he meant Touch AC. Miss chances also come into effect for RoE.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Bull Strength is automatic if a high SR target is willing.

Oh sure, after a prepared standard action, opening himself up to massive assault!

As for Reflex Save, I think he meant Touch AC. Miss chances also come into effect for RoE.

Or, he didn't realize that you don't get a save for RoE, which would affect his preconceived notion of its power level. As for touch AC, I've already commented on that. Miss chances also apply to bull's strength.

 

[Slaved]

As for touch AC, I've already commented on that.

Your comment was that no one ever misses in your game. If that is true then it may be that your players are cheating, have loaded dice, or have simply been incredibly lucky which does not play in to how powerful a spell is or is not.

 

[Ciaran]

I hope you don't suggest that RoE would not be effective if you reduce the opponent wizard to a 1 STR.

An enemy wizard with a 1 STR will be hampered, but not nearly so much as an enemy fighter with a 1 STR.

This argument can be paraphrased, "Improving your strength is more powerful than reducing an opponent's strength by up to almost triple the amount." Is this accurate?

No. That's like responding to "1+1+1+1=4" with "Let's look at the middle 1+1; you're saying that 1+1 equals 4. Is that accurate?" This is just one component of what makes bull's strength a more generally useful spell. (Though I would argue that ray of enfeeblement is particularly strong for a 1st level spell once you hit the mid-levels)

Well, since you've been discussing putting the bull's strength on someone else, let me point out that if that someone else has SR, then it's not automatic either. I'm curious, though, what does a reflex save have to do with anything?

The recipient of bull's strength can voluntarily lower his SR. And read "reflex save" as "ranged touch attack" (I goofed).

 

[SlagMortar]

I hope you don't suggest that RoE would not be effective if you reduce the opponent wizard to a 1 STR.

Sorry, I think I'm going to have to suggest it. How exactly does 1 Str make the opponent wizard less effective? Also, it would seem likely the opponent wizard would be benefitting from some kind of percentage miss chance. I play a 6 Str wizard and was hit with a ray of enfeeblement that did nothing to my effectiveness.

 

[Ciaran]

Oh sure, after a prepared standard action, opening himself up to massive assault!

If you've got a PC with built-in SR in the group, then either you make sure to only cast bull's strength on him before combat, or you cast it on someone else. Or don't have a PC with SR in the group. It's not like the party can't plan around it, and it's a corner case anyway. You might as well argue that healing spells are weak because they don't help undead PCs!

Or, he didn't realize that you don't get a save for RoE, which would affect his preconceived notion of its power level. As for touch AC, I've already commented on that. Miss chances also apply to bull's strength.

My wizard missed a lot with touch attacks. And ray spells either hit or miss, while a fighter enhanced by bull's strength will generally make enough attacks during the spell duration that some of them will hit (often only because of the to-hit bonus provided by the spell).

 

[Ciaran]

Sorry, I think I'm going to have to suggest it. How exactly does 1 Str make the opponent wizard less effective? Also, it would seem likely the opponent wizard would be benefitting from some kind of percentage miss chance. I play a 6 Str wizard and was hit with a ray of enfeeblement that did nothing to my effectiveness.

To take the opposite side in this argument, a wizard whose strength drops too low can find himself too encumbered to move. This is bad when it keeps the wizard from disengaging from melee. (This happened to my wizard once when fighting some shadows early in his career.)