Rulings on Ray of enfeeblement

[evilbob]

Yes, normally they do. However, you also have to take into account spell stacking, and when you have two or more spells with the same effect in different strengths, the stronger one overrides the weaker.

I don't follow you here. Spell stacking is talking more about applying bonuses from different spells, and how those don't stack; nothing leads me to believe that this would apply to penalties as well, which are specifically defined (at least as I recall) as always stacking with themselves. Not to mention that this is the same spell and not two different spells.


However, after a little more digging I found this online, which seems to be the best argument to me:

Stacking

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.


All that said, I still thought penalties always stacked...

 

[Stalker0]

I don't follow you here. Spell stacking is talking more about applying bonuses from different spells, and how those don't stack; nothing leads me to believe that this would apply to penalties as well, which are specifically defined (at least as I recall) as always stacking with themselves. Not to mention that this is the same spell and not two different spells.


However, after a little more digging I found this online, which seems to be the best argument to me:

Stacking

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession)..

If its from the same source it doesn't stack. Two rays of enfeeblement do not stack with each other.

 

[FireLance]

Heal is 6th-level. An empowered cure serious wounds is better than a cure critical wounds (average 33), which is otherwise your highest level spontaneous cure spell (for maximum healing, obviously mass version have other benefits, but will heal much less per person). Thus, I think you'll see this quite often. In fact, I see it every time I play my 14th-level cleric.

It's higher level and costs a feat. IMO, it should be better.

2nd, as in, bull's strength. If +4 STR is fair at 2nd spell level, why is up to -11 STR fair at 1st spell level? I'm not talking caster level, but spell level.

If a 3rd-level spell can deal up to 10d6 points of damage in a 20-foot radius, why is a spell that cures 1d8+10 points of damage in a smaller area a 5th-level spell?

Presumably, applying a penalty is similarly "easier" than giving a bonus in this case.

 

[Diirk]

Personally I find Bull's Strength a little on the weak side anyway... At 1 min/level it probably won't last longer than a single combat and if you don't get ample time to prepare beforehand, then you'll likely have better things to do with your actions than cast it, even at lower levels. While I can see the rational behind reducing them from 1hr/level, I feel they should have been left at 10 min/level like barkskin etc.

If that were the case then I would feel they were relatively balanced with ray of enfeeblement: short duration debuff (mostly combat related effects) vs mid duration buff (useful for combat and noncombat).

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Lesser restoration is a much better choice than dispel magic to end the effects of ray of enfeeblement.

 

[Legildur]

Lesser restoration is a much better choice than dispel magic to end the effects of ray of enfeeblement.

Except that it takes three rounds to cast Lesser Restoration, which could be problematic mid-combat for a touch spell.

Maybe a potion would help though?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Maybe a potion would help though?

A potion or Rapid Spell.

I feel they should have been left at 10 min/level like barkskin etc.

A common house rule. One I've adopted myself. And, I still think that RoE is stronger than bull's strength.

If a 3rd-level spell can deal up to 10d6 points of damage in a 20-foot radius, why is a spell that cures 1d8+10 points of damage in a smaller area a 5th-level spell?

Presumably, applying a penalty is similarly "easier" than giving a bonus in this case.

That's really a stretch, don't you think? I don't think you can compare hit point damage/healing with ability bonuses/penalties. Just like I don't think you could compare ice storm with phantasmal killer, they're just not very easily comparable.

But, I'm not sure you can make a convincing case that a larger penalty is less powerful than a smaller bonus. First of all, you have to say that penalties to strength are weaker than bonuses to strength. Then, you have to justify the difference in values. Then, the level difference, and factor in the other differences (duration, attack roll, etc.). It's not an easy comparison perhaps, but I stand by my statement that RoE is too powerful, and my baseline is bull's strength.

 

[frankthedm]

Except that it takes three rounds to cast Lesser Restoration, which could be problematic mid-combat for a touch spell.

Maybe a potion would help though?

Not as much as you think! Potions have a major limiting factor.

Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect —the caster who brewed the potion has already done so.

So potions of

Restoration, Lesser
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 2, Drd 2, Pal 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 3 rounds
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

Lesser restoration dispels any magical effects reducing one of the subject’s ability scores or cures 1d4 points of temporary ability damage to one of the subject’s ability scores. It also eliminates any fatigue suffered by the character, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued. It does not restore permanent ability drain.

come in 12 flavors!

Dispels any magical effects reducing Strength and eliminates any fatigue, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued.
Dispels any magical effects reducing Dexterity and eliminates any fatigue, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued.
Dispels any magical effects reducing Constitution and eliminates any fatigue, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued.
Dispels any magical effects reducing Intelligence and eliminates any fatigue, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued.
Dispels any magical effects reducing Wisdom and eliminates any fatigue, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued.
Dispels any magical effects reducing Charisma and eliminates any fatigue, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued.
Cures 1d4 points of temporary ability damage to Strength and eliminates any fatigue, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued.
Cures 1d4 points of temporary ability damage to Dexterity and eliminates any fatigue, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued.
Cures 1d4 points of temporary ability damage to Constitution and eliminates any fatigue, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued.
Cures 1d4 points of temporary ability damage to Intelligence and eliminates any fatigue, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued.
Cures 1d4 points of temporary ability damage to Wisdom and eliminates any fatigue, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued.
Cures 1d4 points of temporary ability damage to Charisma and eliminates any fatigue, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued.

 

[KarinsDad]

but I stand by my statement that RoE is too powerful, and my baseline is bull's strength.

I agree.

But, my baseline is Dragons.

RoE and at higher level, Empowered RoE, are very potent low level anti-dragon spells.

At real high level, Twin Empowered RoE (just to make sure you have a fair chance of rolling decent) is also possible.


For melee capable high Strength single opponent encounters (like dragons often are), RoE is very potent. It can also often be very effective in encumbering humanoid opponents.

 

[chaotix42]

Has anyone checked out Escalating Enfeeblement from Complete Mage? Now that is a nasty spell.