D&D 5E Ruminations on 5E (serious)

[Aria Silverhands]

I daresay that when we get to the point that the game relies on embedded monitors and holographic battlemats, we're going to be talking about something other than D&D as we know it.

Not really. Take Neverwinter Nights and put it at the table with monitors built into the table (*hint* Such tables already exist). It's still D&D. It just provides a more immersive view of what your character sees and makes secret communication between the DM and their players easier.

Part of what makes an RPG an RPG, to my mind, is the person-to-person interaction that it requires and encourages. That's what the naysayers never really got back in the early days of RPGing; the games don't make the players insular. The games give them a way to reach out to other people.

I guess all these years that I've been rp'ing with friends online, I haven't really been playing D&D or any other RPG. Thank you for opening my eyes.

You take out that across-the-table factor, and you might as well be playing WoW or AOL Gor or whatever...

Gor? Haha, that's really pathetic, trying to be passive aggressive and bring that into play. Yes, I know what it is and it's nothing like what I was suggesting. I'm talking about a table where players can sit at, face to face with monitors emebedded into the table so they can look down and see the battlemap from only their character's point of view or see a 3d modeled scene from their characters point of view.

Being at the table, it still allows the players to discuss things with each other, roleplay in person, and more... it just brings a whole new level of tools to the table to make things more interesting, speed up gameplay, and help those with DM's who have trouble articulating what they mean when they describe an encounter or scene.

 

[Thulcondar]

I guess all these years that I've been rp'ing with friends online, I haven't really been playing D&D or any other RPG. Thank you for opening my eyes.

You may well have been playing with the rules of D&D, but I guarantee you have not had the full benefit of the social experience that D&D can bring. Nothing wrong with playing RPG's online, of course. But it's most definitely not the same thing as playing across the table. I cannot help but wonder why such a simple observation makes you so defensive...

Gor? Haha, that's really pathetic, trying to be passive aggressive and bring that into play. Yes, I know what it is and it's nothing like what I was suggesting.

Apologies. I had no idea you were a Gorean; it was most definitely not a personal dig as I had no idea that was something you did (nor was my post aimed at you at all, but it followed yours, so I can see how you could think so). It was merely an allusion to the second-rate text-based RP's out there with little or no regard to the original source material. I'm sure it's very fulfilling to you and to the hundreds (or thousands) of other folks out there who do it (I did so myself, way back when). But again, it's not the same as a face-to-face, over-the-table game. Unless your FTF games are a lot different than mine... ;-)

I'm talking about a table where players can sit at, face to face with monitors emebedded into the table so they can look down and see the battlemap from only their character's point of view or see a 3d modeled scene from their characters point of view.

Being at the table, it still allows the players to discuss things with each other, roleplay in person, and more... it just brings a whole new level of tools to the table to make things more interesting, speed up gameplay, and help those with DM's who have trouble articulating what they mean when they describe an encounter or scene.

And you don't think needing such a setup is going to necessitate a fundamental shift in the mindset and demographics of the players involved? I must disagree. What you're describing (and I do in fact understand what you're describing) is more akin to requiring a billiard table, compared to playing marbles. I can play D&D with a couple of books right now, and can play on the kitchen table or a park bench. You're describing a game that requires a lot more... formality, if for no other reason than it requires specialized (and expensive) equpiment.

1980: "Let's play D&D over at Joe's house!" "Okay!" (Grabs PH to go off and have fun)
2010: "Let's play D&D over at Joe's house!" "Nahh... he only has the Gmr 7600 table, and the character generator can't render my armor right. Plus I don't think his dice-roller is properly randomized. And I can't even put an animated lolcat in my profile! WTF is up with that?"

Now, I'm having some fun with you, and I hope you take it in the proper spirit, but the point remains. Folks across a table, talking with one another as to how their characters will react, is a different thing than the same folks sitting across the same table exchanging packets of data to manipulate a digital avatar.

Joe

 

[Aria Silverhands]

You may well have been playing with the rules of D&D, but I guarantee you have not had the full benefit of the social experience that D&D can bring. Nothing wrong with playing RPG's online, of course. But it's most definitely not the same thing as playing across the table. I cannot help but wonder why such a simple observation makes you so defensive...

Because I'm tired of people saying that the friends I've made online and the socializing I do online is not real. I play RPG's offline and online. I know the differences and they're really not that big of a difference. The only thing really missing from personal interaction online is facial gestures and the sound of their voice. Both of which can be accomplishing online with video and voice chat software. Unless of course, you feel that smell is a huge benefit to face to face interaction.

Apologies. I had no idea you were a Gorean; it was most definitely not a personal dig as I had no idea that was something you did (nor was my post aimed at you at all, but it followed yours, so I can see how you could think so). It was merely an allusion to the second-rate text-based RP's out there with little or no regard to the original source material. I'm sure it's very fulfilling to you and to the hundreds (or thousands) of other folks out there who do it (I did so myself, way back when). But again, it's not the same as a face-to-face, over-the-table game. Unless your FTF games are a lot different than mine... ;-)

No, I'm not gorean. I just know about it. I just felt you were using it as a jab because of what it implies. I know how many people view that kind of roleplay.

And you don't think needing such a setup is going to necessitate a fundamental shift in the mindset and demographics of the players involved? I must disagree. What you're describing (and I do in fact understand what you're describing) is more akin to requiring a billiard table, compared to playing marbles. I can play D&D with a couple of books right now, and can play on the kitchen table or a park bench. You're describing a game that requires a lot more... formality, if for no other reason than it requires specialized (and expensive) equpiment.

1980: "Let's play D&D over at Joe's house!" "Okay!" (Grabs PH to go off and have fun)
2010: "Let's play D&D over at Joe's house!" "Nahh... he only has the Gmr 7600 table, and the character generator can't render my armor right. Plus I don't think his dice-roller is properly randomized. And I can't even put an animated lolcat in my profile! WTF is up with that?"

We'll have laptops that we can fold up and stick into our pockets or possible be built into the book itself on the cover. Just look at the MacBook Air. I wasn't suggesting that the monitors embedded into the table replace face to face role-playing at the table... merely use them as a tool to deepen the immersion into the setting and help less than articulate DM's or imaginative players.

Now, I'm having some fun with you, and I hope you take it in the proper spirit, but the point remains. Folks across a table, talking with one another as to how their characters will react, is a different thing than the same folks sitting across the same table exchanging packets of data to manipulate a digital avatar.

I disagree. At some point, we'll be able to have sensors that can take our facial expressions and apply them to our digital characters. Lip movements, eye movements. A smirk. It'll happen. It's simply a natural course of evolution for online communication. To me, there's no difference (aside from smell) from sitting at the same table or chatting online. Especially if we're using voice chat software (which I don't care to use though).

 

[The Highway Man]

"5E" I'd suspect will take the form of 4dvanced Dungeons and Dragons with rules tweaks focusing on deeper simulation along with move flexible character design. It will be sold as an upgrade / Parallel of 4e rather than a replacement.

Considering that 4E historically is Advanced Dungeons & Dragons (D&D -> AD&D -> AD&D2 -> 3E -> 4E), I would prefer a toned down, yet even more streamlined/simplified version of 4E, a real basic D&D (rather than a box of minis with amputated rules, that is) of sorts, personally.

 

[Toben the Many]

I think a 5th Edition would have to do more with the gamer zeitgeist at the time than "improvements" on mechanical systems.

Any talk of improvements on the mechanical systems of a roleplaying game has to be taken with a grain of salt. For one, any roleplaying game system will have its faults. A perfectly designed system cannot be arrived at.

That's because roleplaying games are designed to be, at their root, a simulation of a fantasy scenario. An that for each person, the ideal simulation of that paradigm will be different. For example, some people prefer low fantasy, some people prefer high fantasy. Some people like realistic, gritty combat. Some people prefer cinematic combat.

And even in universal systems, which are constructed to simulate a variety of scenarios and archetypes, there are drawbacks.

So, that said, what D&D has done in the most recent years was to answer the gamer zeitgeist of the time. For example, 3rd Edition came about during a time in which there was an over abundance of fluff in their product line. Extremely detailed histories, long lists of encounter tables, just way too much fluff. So 3rd Edition answered with a crunchier system, that was more tactile. Instead of leaving a lot to be interpreted by the GM (Remember what all a Dex check could cover?) much of the game was directly interpreted by the rules.

Now, we see 4th Edition as a system that is more streamlined and allows for greater DM fiat. Things like skill challenges are more freeform and storytelling-based. At the same time, it also answers the gamer tug towards a more minis-based system. Minis are big right now, too.

So I think a 5th Edition will probably answer whatever zeitgeist is manifest in the gamer population of the time period in which it is released.

The thing about RPGers is that the culture is very strong. RPGers tend to watch the same movies, play the same video games, etc.

 

[Jer]

I think a 5th Edition would have to do more with the gamer zeitgeist at the time than "improvements" on mechanical systems.

I think this, combined with the observation about "whatever creative team is in charge at the time" are the two most important observations to make.

We don't know what shifts are going to come in our little gaming subculture over the next decade. And we don't know what innovations are going to come in the next decade either. We can't know. This far out there's really no point in speculation unless you want to play "Cassandra" and try to come up with "worst case scenarios" to make your blood boil and keep you up at night worrying.

In about 5 years I'll start thinking about where D&D is going to go next - at that point there will be a critical mass of "stuff" out on the market that a useful gauge of where D&D CAN go will be appropriate. And at that point the other games that may exert an influence on D&D will probably also be on the market. And we may have some idea of who the creative team that will be working on the next edition will be. And even with the knowledge of all of those variables, five years from now I'll STILL probably get it wrong (I was convinced that 4e would be a "conservative" upgrade for a long time - my fears were that they wouldn't do anything big to shake it up and we'd end up with another 2nd edition "veneer of change" instead of a game different enough from 3e to actually be worth buying - boy was I wrong).

 

[Dausuul]

Okay, here are my predictions for D&D 5E:

1. Continued slaughtering of sacred cows. One of the limitations in the development of every new edition has been that you can only butcher so many sacred cows per edition. I think we will see the last vestiges of Vancian casting erased; a couple more of the old iconic races and/or classes may go by the wayside; we may see hit points renamed, and maybe even changes to the core attributes.

2. The "fluff" of D&D will change in accordance with whatever trends the fantasy genre has followed during the intervening years. Can't predict what those will be.

3. I agree with Aria. Sometime in the next 5-10 years, I believe there will be a big push to create a virtual gaming table--and I'm not talking about an online battlemat. I'm talking about graphics and sound on par with those of the typical MMO. Indeed, from the player perspective it might look quite a bit like an MMO; the key difference being that the world is created and run by a human DM who interacts with the PCs in real-time, rather than through pre-scripted events.

From the DM perspective... that'll be pretty interesting. The DM client will have to be much more user-friendly than any to date (infinitely more so than NWN), allowing DMs to rapidly create and populate large areas, customize the rules, and control the flow of the game on many levels.

For a while, probably the duration of 5E, this form of gaming will exist side-by-side with old-school pencil and paper. 5E will be designed with the online game as the primary focus and PNP as a secondary but still important one. By 6E, I think PNP will be an afterthought at best.

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Random Thought: I wonder if D&D will ever be "classless" and how many editions onward it would be till that happens.

We know it won't be that hard to tweak 4e to be classless as stated by I believe Mearls.

 

[Scribble]

Like others have said I don't really think it's possible to predict what 5e will fix until after we've been playing 4e for a bit...

After all 4e is fixing some of the stuff 3e "fixed" in the first place. When it came out in 3e it was new and cool and seemed good... Only after it became routine that the broken parts werre noticed.

 

[Miladoon]

Interesting Time Capsule.