D&D 5E Rune Knight Cloud Rune Shenanigans

[ECMO3]

To start with here is the relevant text from the stone Rune:

"In addition, when you or a creature you can see within 30 feet of you is hit by an attack roll, you can use your reaction to invoke the rune and choose a different creature within 30 feet of you, other than the attacker. The chosen creature becomes the target of the attack, using the same roll. This magic can transfer the attack's effects regardless of the attack's range. Once you invoke this rune, you can't do so again until you finish a short or long rest."

A Rune Knight in a game I DM has taken to targeting allies when he can't get to enemies and then using the Stone Rune to transfer the damage. Recently he had the party Rogue go prone while a flying enemy was reigning down arrows. Then he attacked the prone Rogue (with advantage) and used his reaction to invoke the Stone Rune to transfer the damage to the flying enemy. I thought it was pretty clever, but it brought up some other interesting options:

1. Do the same thing as above on a flying enemy but throw a net on a prone ally from 5 feet away. You would throw it with advantage (within 5 feet of prone target, no enemy within 5 feet). Then Stone Rune it, it transfers the "effects" regardless of the range and the flying enemy is now restrained by the net, plummets to the ground and you go over and whack him with your second attack (with advantage).

2. Team with the Wizard to use it with Steel Wind Strike if there are less than 5 enemies in Range. Have him target an ally in addition to the enemies then Stone Rune that attack on to one of the enemies essentially doing double damage to that enemy from the spell (damage from the attack targeting the enemy plus the attack targeting the ally).

3. There is no mention of "seeing" the enemy you transfer it to. So if you are fighting an enemy who is invisible, behind cover or otherwise hidden target an ally with an attack and then Stone Rune that damage to the enemy.

RAW I think all of these work.

 

[Shiroiken]

I think you misunderstood the rune. It changes the target of the attack, using the same roll, but doesn't change anything else.

To start with here is the relevant text from the stone Rune:

"In addition, when you or a creature you can see within 30 feet of you is hit by an attack roll, you can use your reaction to invoke the rune and choose a different creature within 30 feet of you, other than the attacker. The chosen creature becomes the target of the attack, using the same roll. This magic can transfer the attack's effects regardless of the attack's range. Once you invoke this rune, you can't do so again until you finish a short or long rest."

1. Do the same thing as above on a flying enemy but throw a net on a prone ally from 5 feet away. You would throw it with advantage (within 5 feet of prone target, no enemy within 5 feet). Then Stone Rune it, it transfers the "effects" regardless of the range and the flying enemy is now restrained by the net, plummets to the ground and you go over and whack him with your second attack (with advantage).

Your attack roll still has to hit the flier. If you don't, then the attack misses the new target and has no effect. Also, the flier better be able to fit in the net, because I'd assume there's a size restriction (I'd sure impose one as a DM).

2. Team with the Wizard to use it with Steel Wind Strike if there are less than 5 enemies in Range. Have him target an ally in addition to the enemies then Stone Rune that attack on to one of the enemies essentially doing double damage to that enemy from the spell (damage from the attack targeting the enemy plus the attack targeting the ally).

Yeah, this would work assuming the attack on the ally would hit the chosen enemy. Kind of a waste for a 1/rest power IMO.

3. There is no mention of "seeing" the enemy you transfer it to. So if you are fighting an enemy who is invisible, behind cover or otherwise hidden target an ally with an attack and then Stone Rune that damage to the enemy.

Odd, but might be correct. IIRC, the only "targeting" rules are specifically for spellcasting, which this isn't. However, if you were to attempt to choose an illegal target, your ally is taking all that damage to the face.

 

[ECMO3]

I think you misunderstood the rune. It changes the target of the attack, using the same roll, but doesn't change anything else.

Your attack roll still has to hit the flier. If you don't, then the attack misses the new target and has no effect. Also, the flier better be able to fit in the net, because I'd assume there's a size restriction (I'd sure impose one as a DM).

Yes of course, you use the same roll, but the point is you make an attack against an enemy you can't otherwise attack. A net works on tiny, small, medium and large creatures. That covers most flying creatures. Huge and Gargantuan creatures can't be targeted of course.

Yeah, this would work assuming the attack on the ally would hit the chosen enemy. Kind of a waste for a 1/rest power IMO.

Steel Wind Strike is 33 damage on average that is pretty boss and it is per short rest, so you can do it more often than the Wizard is going to have 5th level spells to cast.

Odd, but might be correct. IIRC, the only "targeting" rules are specifically for spellcasting, which this isn't. However, if you were to attempt to choose an illegal target, your ally is taking all that damage to the face.

There is no general rule for seeing a target for spellcasting. It is whatever is listed in the spell description. That said most of the spells that target creatures require you to see them, but a few spells don't specify you need to see the enemy. Dissonant Whispers, Witchbolt, Ray of Sickness and Eldritch Blast are a few of them.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Yes of course, you use the same roll, but the point is you make an attack against an enemy you can't otherwise attack.

What's wrong with a bow and arrow? This seems to be a waste of a great life-saving ability. I'm pretty sure the average monster hits harder than the average fighter.

 

[FarBeyondC]

What's wrong with a bow and arrow? This seems to be a waste of a great life-saving ability. I'm pretty sure the average monster hits harder than the average fighter.

Maybe the character's trash at using a bow and arrow, or otherwise just a lot more effective at melee attacks?

Also, you don't need a life-saving ability if the things threatening your life are all dead and dealt with. (Also, also, the life-saving ability doesn't work or is ill-advised in the event there's no other enemies within 30 feet of the person being saved.)

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Maybe the character's trash at using a bow and arrow, or otherwise just a lot more effective at melee attacks?

They are a fighter, they are trash with everything!

 

[Sacrosanct]

During our Rime of the FRM game, I was playing a rune knight and the two gnome mind flayers were kicking our butts. When one of them used it's extract brain attack, I switched it to the other one. That changed the battle significantly lol.

 

[ECMO3]

What's wrong with a bow and arrow? This seems to be a waste of a great life-saving ability. I'm pretty sure the average monster hits harder than the average fighter.

Low Dexterity is the problem with a bow.

As far as monsters, sure but the problem is you can't transfer the damage back on the attacker, so you need at least two enemies within 30 feet of you. Otherwise can only transfer that damage to one of your allies so on diverting an enemies hit it is only useful if there are at least two enemies within 30' and often times there aren't either because some are dead or too far away or because it is one boss you are fighting. Also the enemies that hit harder come in smaller numbers so in terms of oportunity to transfer enemy attacks it is most available on small ticky-tack hits. If you save it for that whopping high-damage crit you are often going to end up going to a short rest without using it.

When fighting single enemy I have transfered damage from one ally to another ally to keep the first alive - The barbarian gets hit and is going to go down because it is the 9th hit he has taken in the fight, but the Wizard has taken none so you transfer that hit to the Wizard.

 

[Stormonu]

Am I missing something? The target you transfer the attack to still has to be within 30 feet.

 

[ECMO3]

Am I missing something? The target you transfer the attack to still has to be within 30 feet.

Yes so if he is higher than 30 feet it won't work. Official rules there is no diagonal, so a creature that is 30 feet up and 30 feet left is 30 feat away not 42 feet away.

 

[Shiroiken]

Yes so if he is higher than 30 feet it won't work. Official rules there is no diagonal, so a creature that is 30 feet up and 30 feet left is 30 feat away not 42 feet away.

Standard rules, not official rules. There's the proper diagonal variant in the DMG, which is also official. It's nitpicking, but when you're wanting to work shenanigans with RAW you have to take everything into consideration.

 

[Ancalagon]

Am I missing something? The target you transfer the attack to still has to be within 30 feet.

What I don't understand is why chucking javelins isn't an option.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Low Dexterity is the problem with a bow.

And losing Extra Attack, and generally low damage from fighter weapon attacks is the problem with what you propose. Get some javelins. Better still, don't neglect dexterity.

you need at least two enemies within 30 feet of you.

And that never happens to fighters in D&D?!

If you must use this ability that way, get the rogue to sneak attack you, and transfer their damage!

 

[ECMO3]

And losing Extra Attack, and generally low damage from fighter weapon attacks is the problem with what you propose. Get some javelins. Better still, don't neglect dexterity.

Throwing a net with advantage at an enemy flying 30 feet up is generally going to be more effective than making 2 attacks throwing javelins without advantage, or 2 attacks throwing something else with disadvantage.

Also you don't get to use extra attack throwing javelins unless one is already in your hand at the start of the turn, or you have the thrown weapon fighter feat because you can only draw one of them a turn for free.

And that never happens to fighters in D&D?!

It happens but not every fight and when it does happen it is often not ideal to use it.

As an example on Monday I played a 4-hour session, in that session here were the fights:

1. The first fight we fought a 6 Sahagins (sp?) and 2 sharks and yes there were multiple within 30 feet but the enemies that landed hits for more than 5 damage were fighting somone else else on the other side of the ship and not within 30 feet. And this is the problem - there were some opportunities for using it but they were only for like for 5 damage or so as such they saved it

2. Second fight was a single giant octopus

3. Third fight was a single homebrew undead of some sort,

4. Fourth fight was a single Sahagin boss

SHORT REST - Did not use Cloud Rune at all

5. Fifth fight was with a swarm of quippers, which is 1 creature

4. Fourth fight of the day was 3 merrow. The cloud rune was used to keep one of the characters from dying. It was not a very big hit, but it was used.

Several Long Rests later, next series of fights:

1. First fight was a Single Nothic

2. Second fight was a mind flayer and 2 thralls. These started from more than 30 feet away from the fighter. The fighter got incapacitated for the first turn and could not move closer. The mind flayer moved out to the fighter but the Thralls stayed more than 30 feet away and engaged the incapacitated Barbarian instead. So there was not an opportunity.


That was all the fights in the 4-hour session. In that there were 2 fights where it was useful in its as intended role, but only one of them was very effective.

If you must use this ability that way, get the rogue to sneak attack you, and transfer their damage!

There is no Rogue in the party, although the idea to use Steel Wind Strike would do comparable damage (note they are not high enough level for that yet).

 

[ECMO3]

What I don't understand is why chucking javelins isn't an option.

He did not have Javelins at that time. He does now.

At the time the player threw his dagger. threw his crossbow (yes threw it) which were the only 2 ranged weapons he had. He also threw a Cutlass. All of those were with disadvantage due to range I believe.