Running clerics as spiritual counselors?

[Jürgen Hubert]

In my campaign, there are two types of priests - clerics and lay members. Lay members are the non-spellcasters who perform the majority of church duties and interaction with with the community. Clerics are the rarer breed who are gifted with spells and powers by their divinity.

Yes, but what do they do with their power and respect?

I mean, with their power they have even better chances of influencing large number of people than lay members, and swaying them to their point of view. Do their gods care about how many followers they have? Does the clergy care?

 

[DragonLancer]

I think this is starting to stretch the definition of "counsel".

But to them it would be a fine example.

 

[lukelightning]

I dunno about actual spiritual guidance, but I have seem several people, myself included, who like to roleplay "ineffectual priests." Clerics who try-but-fail to convert people (PCs, NPCs, BBEGs...). "Sure I'll cast cure serious wounds but while you're recouperating let me tell you of the glory of the Sovereign Host..."

"Is that a scroll of Heal you have, because I'm almost dead..."
"No, brother, it is something even better...it's a pamphlet introducing the tenets of Pelorism."

 

[lukelightning]

Do their gods care about how many followers they have? Does the clergy care?

I'd wager that depending on the campaign world, Mother Superior is happy that the PC cleric is out fighting monsters and not at the church, challenging her authority. Nothing irks an administration like a talented individual.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

I think this is starting to stretch the definition of "counsel".

Well, they will give advice. In the case of some cults it won't neccessary be good advice, but the same is true in real life. After all, many real life fringe religious movements encourage its members towards self-destructive behavior. Yet their recruiters still know how to take interest in the life of potential recruits - or how to fake it.

 

[DragonLancer]

Yes, but what do they do with their power and respect?

I mean, with their power they have even better chances of influencing large number of people than lay members, and swaying them to their point of view. Do their gods care about how many followers they have? Does the clergy care?

IMC, the gods do care, if only for a selfish reasons. Everytime a follower of a god dies, the god gets their XP added to his own (for use in performing miracles, crafting and divine status). This filters down to the faithful so, yes, the clergy do care that they and their divinity are seen in a good light (or fearful light, if evil).

As for influencing people, that all depends on the god's portfolio. A deity of secrets and lies (Vecna for example) isn't going to be a powerful god, nor have a powerful cult/established temples because his nature and portfolio fly in the face of that. Pelor or Heironeous, on the other hand would have grand cathedrals pointing up to the heavens, hold mass for the faithful, advice civil leaders and where nessecary set an example of heroism.

 

[hong]

Well, they will give advice.

... or maybe they'd rather do than say, and get on with the business of destruction. Which is not to say that if someone asks then they won't answer, but they may not offer said advice on their own initiative. Just like with any other character, cleric or non-cleric.

 

[Voadam]

From my impressions, it seems that clerics in D&D campaigns are spellcasters with a focus on healing spells first and foremost. Sure, they have some religious angle, but that's usually limited to following a certain code of behavior, trying to convert others to their faith, or simply as another way of building and interacting with a political power base.

But throughout history, priests have primarily been counselors - people to whom other members of a community turn for advice and mediation. If someone has trouble of any kind, they will talk to the priest about it. If they have a dispute with someone else about property or other issues, they will ask the priest to mediate it.

And I feel that this aspect of priestly duties often comes too short with cleric PCs. How often do the other members of a party come to the cleric for advice - other when they are discussing combat tactics? How often do clerics mediate disputes between party members?


What are your thoughts on this issue?

I disagree about them being historically primarily counselors. Servants of the divine, not counselors for fellow mortals is the primary focus.

I'm quite happy having my clerics be primarily divine spellcasters instead of counselors. I'm fine having churches be political institutions and centers of divine magical power instead of as psychiatrist offices and arbitration centers.

In some campaigns gods are dependent on mortal worship for their power, in some gods care about mortals for mortals own sake. I like the Greek model, Gods care that mortals observe rituals and perform sacrifices to honor them, and may power some servants like oracles, but for the most part humanity is a lesser creation on its own and the Gods care about themselves, not humanity. Clerics get their power and go.

 

[theemrys]

I remember in an old Birthright campaign I had that two of the players were playing a Paladin and a Cleric. In this case the paladin was the "chosen one" who had arrive and was made ruler of the land. The cleric was the "high priest" of the land who was pushed aside for the newly arrived "chosen one". It made for an interesting aventure when both had to go on a quest, but the cleric was VERY interested in pointing out any possilble flaw or indescretion of the Paladin to try and regain his status. Still, they were both true followers of the faith and were certainly united against the other "non-believers" they were traveling with.

I love the idea of a cleric playing up the faith, and often give bonus XP for it. It is VERY dependent on the faith though. I always thought that a fanatic of St. Cuthburt would be fun... spouting such parables as "Walk softly and carry a big cudgel", or "Beating the evil out of you"... and I can think of some very interesting times to be had with a cleric of a god of lies and trickery...

(In Kalamar there is the Confuser of Ways who often have their clergy impersonate the clergy of other churches to slowly subvert the followers...)

 

[Brother MacLaren]

And yes, all this should probably appliy to clerics of Erythnul, too (though I am not too familiar with Greyhawk). After all, the cult needs to spread somehow - and they might make inroads if they show that wanton slaughter is a great way of releasing stress and inner turmoil.

The adventures of Father Slaughter, Village Priest of Erythnul.

A village youth: "Father Slaughter, I have a problem. Gwendolyn and I wish to marry, but her father has promised her to Sir Baltaff."
"Kill them! Slaughter the men and make their entrails an offering to the Great Lord Erythnul! It will fix everything and make you feel better! If the woman disapproves, kill her too!"

A fellow cleric: "Father Slaughter, I have a problem. Brother Mayhem keeps stealing my sacrificial victims and now he's trying to kill me."
"Kill him! Butcher him on our high altar! We will drink his blood together!"
"You told him the same thing, didn't you? What is your Wisdom anyway, like 7?"
"Aaaagh!" [swish] [hack] [thump]

A local noble: "Okay, we know you are dedicated to murdering everybody in this province, but look: if the peasants die of the plague, they can't die screaming at your hands. So help us cure this plague, will you?"
"Err... [hand quivers near axe hilt]... fine. [reaches for axe again] This time. [fiddles with axe handle] But someday I will bathe my axe in their blood!"
"Yes, well, we --"
"Aaaagh!" [swish] [hack] [thump]