Running + Dex bonus

[WarShrike]

Heyas.

Got into a fight with one of my players tonight. Heres the situation: The party was running away (moving at x4 speed) from some goblins after a nasty skirmish left 2 PCs unconcious. Anyway, Goblin archers are firing away into the group (targets decided randomly usind a d4) and the Level 2 Barbarian gets hit. Now, since they were running, i denied them their Dex modifier to AC. Barbarian is pissed, says he has Uncany Dodge from being lvl 2, and states he retains his Dex bonus. I rule that he still loses it because running away at top speed works differently than say, getting caught flat footed. We argue back and forth, voices rise and finnally it ends with a sort of: Me DM, You PC, you lose dex bonus now STFU.

Now, after the game i looked it up. His point of view is worth looking into now that it wont stall the game (and not that it would have changed anything, with dex he has AC18, i rolled a 19). I cant find anything that supports UCD retaining Dex bonus to AC while running. So based on how you guys play, does he retain Dex Bonus?

Thx.

WarShrike

 

[blargney the second]

No Dex. That's what the Run feat is for.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Of course, unless the goblins were using readied actions, the PCs could run 4x their speed on their turns, then stop running; when the goblins shoot on their own turn, the PCs are not running, and are not denied Dex bonus. Then, on the PCs' turns, they run 4x their speed again...

-Hyp.

 

[irdeggman]

Have him specifically read the entries in the class description on this.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a barbarian can no longer be flanked. This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack the barbarian by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target has barbarian levels. If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum level a rogue must be to flank the character.

Its the "even if" part of uncanny dodge that could get things into trouble - but that is the DM's call. To me it is is pretty clear that it refers to the conditions noted (and similar ones - that is is how I would read the "even if").

Should the barbarian also retain dex bonus to AC if grappling or climbing? Ruling needs to consistent across those types of conditions too.

 

[Rvdvelden]

Of course, unless the goblins were using readied actions, the PCs could run 4x their speed on their turns, then stop running; when the goblins shoot on their own turn, the PCs are not running, and are not denied Dex bonus. Then, on the PCs' turns, they run 4x their speed again...

-Hyp.

I tend to disagree on this interpretation. Run is a full-round action. A full-round action "requires an entire round to complete". Basically, by the time the character stops running (after a complete round), the goblins will have fired their weapons on their initiative already (assuming the initiative order didn't change).

 

[shilsen]

I tend to disagree on this interpretation. Run is a full-round action. A full-round action "requires an entire round to complete".

Not exactly. A full-round action takes up all your actions on your turn, but it doesn't necessarily take an entire round to complete. Note that a full attack, charging, loading a heavy crossbow, etc. all take full-round actions. That means you can't take any actions (except free/swift ones) besides doing one of those on your turn. But if your initiative is 14 and you are taking a full attack, or charging, or loading a heavy crossbow, or running, you complete the action before the guy with initiative 13 goes.

Basically, by the time the character stops running (after a complete round), the goblins will have fired their weapons on their initiative already (assuming the initiative order didn't change).

Nope. See above.

 

[blargney the second]

Cool. I just learned something new about 3.5. Thanks guys!
-blarg

 

[Stormtower]

Not exactly. A full-round action takes up all your actions on your turn, but it doesn't necessarily take an entire round to complete. Note that a full attack, charging, loading a heavy crossbow, etc. all take full-round actions. That means you can't take any actions (except free/swift ones) besides doing one of those on your turn. But if your initiative is 14 and you are taking a full attack, or charging, or loading a heavy crossbow, or running, you complete the action before the guy with initiative 13 goes.

Hmmm... I am not sure about this interpretation either. Wouldn't your take on a full round action therefore negate this SRD entry?

(from the SRD):
Attacking on a Charge

After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a -2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn. (emphasis mine)

Coupled with this excerpt (from the SRD):
The Combat Round
For almost all purposes, there is no relevance to the end of a round or the beginning of a round. A round can be a segment of game time starting with the first character to act and ending with the last, but it usually means a span of time from one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.



So... if "charge" is a full round action and "run" is a full round action shouldn't the Dex penalty for both actions apply until the start of the next turn? Just as when I cast a (non-quickened) Summon Monster or SNA spell I am considered to be casting until the start of my next turn, whereupon the summoned critter immediately appears and attacks?

 

[irdeggman]

PHB pg 147

"If you spend the entire round running, you can move quadruple your speed."

It doesn't state a full round action, but rather "spending the entire round" which means that you are running the entire round.

Now it also lists run under the full-round actions pg 143-144 - so it counts as a full-round action and it takes the entire round to accomplish (not just all of your actions).

Charging (pg 155) specifically states that you take the -2 AC penalty until the start of your next turn. Run doesn't make that statement. This is important because charging can be a standard or move action (if your are restricted to said type of movement - run can't be done except as a full round action. So a zombie can charge but can't run.

 

[Hypersmurf]

PHB pg 147

"If you spend the entire round running, you can move quadruple your speed."

It doesn't state a full round action, but rather "spending the entire round" which means that you are running the entire round.

It does state a full round action on p144, though:

Run
You can run as a full round action. (If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step.) When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line.

If someone runs 120 feet as a full round action and drops prone as a free action, when do you consider them to become prone? Before the end of their turn this round, or at the very start of their turn next round?

-Hyp.