D&D 5E Running T1-4 (ToEE) for the first time. Any advice?

[JonnyP71]

The intro mentions the players should be broke and worn down when entering Hommlet.

Unless you really want to weave this into the plot line, that whole section about the adventurers being impoverished beginners should probably be ignored. It's presence in the text means nothing more in reality than 'this adventure is designed for a new party of 1st level', because all 1st level PCs in AD&D were relatively poorly equipped and impoverished. T1 was the 1st low level module released for AD&D and that passage was simply backing up that fact.

But, and this is quite a big but, it also assumes that this 'under equipped ragtag bunch' are 8-10 strong in terms of numbers - few parties these days are. 1st level PCs were also highly expendable - that mindset has all but evaporated too. The Moathouse is a tough old place for a 1st level party, and a large party of level 1s are likely to experience several deaths along the way. Unless the players are highly skilled and innovative, with typical modern group sizes being in the 4-6 PCs range, the DM might either want to reduce encounter numbers, provide cheap (free!) henchmen - there are a few available in Hommlet, or give them some small tasks beforehand to help them get some coin and thus some better armour, or maybe even a level of experience.

I've not tried converting this one to 5E yet, but I can see it being just as deadly - if not a little more so, due to the effect of extra numbers of enemies in 5E. The encounter with the Brigands has TPK written all over it.

The other intention of that introductory passage would have been to encourage the DM to get the party to interact fully with the townsfolk, and that's where the true strength of T1 lay - Hommlet itself was/is a great little place to base a campaign from.

I'm using it as the hub of a 1E campaign at the moment - the party are renovating the Moathouse to use as their own base, they've employed some Gnomes to help them (after freeing the Gnome captive), the party's Cavalier serves as a Captain in the town guard under Rufus, several of the party have converted to the Church of St Cuthbert, and Lareth became an ongoing nemesis, before finally meeting his fate underneath a Folding Boat!

The players have a secondary group of characters who are currently scoping out Nulb....

 

[TerraDave]

Hommlet stands out for being unusually detailed and for having lots of leveled NPCs. It doesn't have single way of being used. Its really a resource that can be used lots of ways, certainly early on but also as the PCs start exploring the temple itself.

...
If you run it as originally intended, starting at level 1, you'll need to adjust every encounter to fit 5E's combat design (6-8 per day, most easy or normal difficulty, assume 2 short rests), otherwise you'll slaughter them.

The adventure is designed for 1e. Encounters in the Temple especially have LOTS of enemies, in numbers that will trounce 5e characters.

So, on those NPCs...the moathouse and (to a lesser degree) the temple are hard on purpose. But the players can get help! This opens up a lot of the interaction in town, and this could go in several different directions.

But this is just one example. What if the PCs are evil? What if forces from the temple attack in force? What if there is a split involving the various implied factions? The village is set up to help deal with all these situations.

 

[Luz]

I've not tried converting this one to 5E yet, but I can see it being just as deadly - if not a little more so, due to the effect of extra numbers of enemies in 5E. The encounter with the Brigands has TPK written all over it.

The ToEE Conversion document does a good job of adjusting enemy numbers for 5e while still retaining its deadliness, with advice for more or less enemies depending on size and level of the party when they reach the moathouse. The brigands in area #7, for example, is measured as a Deadly encounter according to 5e rules, and this is consisitent throughout. Even the first encounter at the moathouse (the giant frogs) nearly wiped out the entire party (four 2nd level characters). They barely managed to escape back to Hommlet and hire some reinforcements.

My only gripe with the document is the inclusion of some of the developments from Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil for 3e, something I never cared for. Lareth, for example, is made a cleric of Tharizdun. Its easy enough to ignore, tho.

 

[Bacon Bits]

The ToEE Conversion document does a good job of adjusting enemy numbers for 5e while still retaining its deadliness, with advice for more or less enemies depending on size and level of the party when they reach the moathouse. The brigands in area #7, for example, is measured as a Deadly encounter according to 5e rules, and this is consisitent throughout. Even the first encounter at the moathouse (the giant frogs) nearly wiped out the entire party (four 2nd level characters). They barely managed to escape back to Hommlet and hire some reinforcements.

The brigands in those notes are only deadly to 4 1st level PCs, but I don't think you should do that anyways. The PCs should be level 2 by the time they reach the moathouse from random encounters. I always like to run a few random encounters first so the PCs can get accustomed to the abilities of their comrades. That encounter is only medium if they're level 2. It's only 4 CR 1/8 and 1 CR 1/2. As for the frogs, when I ran it I ran 2 regular Giant Frogs and 4 gimped Giant Frogs (half hp, half damage, size small so no swallow) that I called CR 1/8. My PCs crushed it. They had a harder time with the brigands, which I ran as a Thug, a Guard, and 3 or 4 Bandits.

My only gripe with the document is the inclusion of some of the developments from Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil for 3e, something I never cared for. Lareth, for example, is made a cleric of Tharizdun. Its easy enough to ignore, tho.

Yeah, but Lolth's involvement doesn't make sense at all. If we take the 3e story then nobody wants to help Tharizdun, and if you just stick to 1e stuff and you know anything about GDQ1-7 it doesn't make any sense for Lolth to be interested in helping the Elder Elemental God at all. I mean, sure, you can say that this all happens before GDQ, but if the players don't realize that then it's just confusing. IIRC, Lareth is Lolth's only direct presence, and he's a human male.

 

[ephemeron]

When I tried running TOEE a long time ago, it bogged down not very far into the temple proper. The campaign had become just one fight after another and the players got bored with it.

On reflection, I see it as a Yojimbo/A Fistful of Dollars/Last Man Standing scenario presented in a form that's easy to mistake for a dungeon crawl. The trick that I wish I'd known then is showing the players that their enemies are divided into a bunch of factions that they can play against each other.

 

[Luz]

Yeah, but Lolth's involvement doesn't make sense at all. If we take the 3e story then nobody wants to help Tharizdun, and if you just stick to 1e stuff and you know anything about GDQ1-7 it doesn't make any sense for Lolth to be interested in helping the Elder Elemental God at all. I mean, sure, you can say that this all happens before GDQ, but if the players don't realize that then it's just confusing. IIRC, Lareth is Lolth's only direct presence, and he's a human male.

Yeah, as I mentioned in a previous post, Lolth was originally intended to be the antagonist of ToEE by Gygax when he wrote T1, not Zuggtmoy, thus explaining why Lareth is a servant of Lolth. The true menace behind the Temple was to be the Elder Elemental God. This was later changed to Zuggtmoy, but no amendment was made for Lareth.

Gygax discusses some of this here and here.

There are all sorts of forums speculating/expanding ToEE to accommodate Gygax's original vision to use the EEG, something I have not altogether dismissed for my current campaign. Including levels from Princes of the Apocalypse seems like the easiest way to do this (rather than start from scratch). I haven't decided yet if I'll do that or just stick to the original ToEE.

 

[twizty]

The brigands in those notes are only deadly to 4 1st level PCs, but I don't think you should do that anyways. The PCs should be level 2 by the time they reach the moathouse from random encounters. I always like to run a few random encounters first so the PCs can get accustomed to the abilities of their comrades. That encounter is only medium if they're level 2. It's only 4 CR 1/8 and 1 CR 1/2. As for the frogs, when I ran it I ran 2 regular Giant Frogs and 4 gimped Giant Frogs (half hp, half damage, size small so no swallow) that I called CR 1/8. My PCs crushed it. They had a harder time with the brigands, which I ran as a Thug, a Guard, and 3 or 4 Bandits.



Yeah, but Lolth's involvement doesn't make sense at all. If we take the 3e story then nobody wants to help Tharizdun, and if you just stick to 1e stuff and you know anything about GDQ1-7 it doesn't make any sense for Lolth to be interested in helping the Elder Elemental God at all. I mean, sure, you can say that this all happens before GDQ, but if the players don't realize that then it's just confusing. IIRC, Lareth is Lolth's only direct presence, and he's a human male.

Yeah, I'm starting to run numbers and see how things look before hand. I have 4 players with a 5th that will be NPC'd for the most part because of his schedule.

When I tried running TOEE a long time ago, it bogged down not very far into the temple proper. The campaign had become just one fight after another and the players got bored with it.

On reflection, I see it as a Yojimbo/A Fistful of Dollars/Last Man Standing scenario presented in a form that's easy to mistake for a dungeon crawl. The trick that I wish I'd known then is showing the players that their enemies are divided into a bunch of factions that they can play against each other.

This is definitely something that's a concern of mine. I need to sit down and really dig through and set that up. I don't want them to get bored with a megadungeon crawl. We just finished Tomb of Horrors (annoyingly our DM spent all the time converting it only to find out it just released in Tales from the Yawning Portal), which was a blast as none of us had played. Then I just finished running a one-shot dungeon crawl to introduce some new players to the game before the campaign started. So they're definitely yearning for not another crawl.

That's an interesting comparison, I hadn't considered the Yojimbo concept of it.

...interesting

 

[Stormdale]

This is definitely something that's a concern of mine. I need to sit down and really dig through and set that up. I don't want them to get bored with a megadungeon crawl. We just finished Tomb of Horrors (annoyingly our DM spent all the time converting it only to find out it just released in Tales from the Yawning Portal), which was a blast as none of us had played. Then I just finished running a one-shot dungeon crawl to introduce some new players to the game before the campaign started. So they're definitely yearning for not another crawl.

In that case don't! Run T1 and see where it goes from there. You could add elements of PoTA rather than T2-4 or it could lead into the Slavers series for instance. It doesn't have to be a megacampaign from the get go.

Stormdale

 

[Luz]

This is definitely something that's a concern of mine. I need to sit down and really dig through and set that up. I don't want them to get bored with a megadungeon crawl.

A few ideas to counter the dungeon crawl doldrums:

The Broken Tower and Upper Temple (pgs.36-42) provide some non-linear routes through the temple, for an enterprising party. There are five different access tunnels: three that lead to different areas of level 1, one that leads to level 2, and one in the Broken Tower that leads to level 3. Also available are numerous robes left behind in the various vestries of the Upper Temple. All of this seems put in place for a resourceful group to use disguise/deception strategies to navigate and recon the temple, thus learn of the varying rival factions and perhaps exploit them. Combine this with the possibility of a captured bandit leader or lieutenant from the Broken Tower to provide more details of the temple, then the adventure becomes more of a covert operation.

For a breather, maybe have an important ally in Hommlet or Nulb call the party back for some help with something.

A few recurring enemies will always drive players' motivations, especially if they've done something like stolen their property of caused serious harm/death to a fellow PC. They practically sell themselves. Rannos and Gremag are good candidates, but you could use several other NPCs in the Temple as well. Having one stationed in Nulb and one in the Temple will keep the players moving back and forth. Combine this with your idea of a kidnapped younger sibling of a PC working directly with one of these villains.

 

[ephemeron]

Another thought: you could make it a spy story!

There are already secret agents all through Hommlet and Nulb to work with and against. The party could be recruited by one of the undercover agents of good to collect evidence that the Temple is becoming a threat again, rather than taking it down themselves.