D&D 5E Running T1-4 (ToEE) for the first time. Any advice?

[Luz]

If I were to run it as part of a "classics campaign" then I' be looking at Ghost Tower of Inverness (maybe even as a side trek as a change of pace during the T1-4 series), White Plume Mountain (again possible side trek) but think it would lend well it lost Caverns of Tsojcanth/Forgotten Temple of Tharzidun and then into ye olde classic GDQ.

I second for S4 The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth and WG4 The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun. Iuz can be used to bridge ToEE with those two modules, especially since WG4 is woven into the wilderness campaign of Tsojcanth. Of course, there is a lot more dungeon crawling, but S4 is one of the funnest dungeon crawls ever, IMO. You wont regret it.

Joseph Bloch wrote a good blog about connecting these modules into a campaign here. Its an excellent read and was, apparently,part of Gygax's original plan for the GH campaign.

From there, you could go the GDQ route. If my players had not already played them, I would. Another alternative, if you want to carry on with a "stymie Iuz" theme, is WGR6 City of Skulls by Carl Sargent. It takes place during the From the Ashes timeline, so YMMV. Its an excellent high-level adventure in Iuz's capitol of Dorakaa that focuses much more on stealth and deception than hack and slash, I highly recommend it.

 

[Bacon Bits]

Spoiler Alert, but at this point, I think anyone this far in is too late anyway.

It makes sense for there to be a Lolth faction, since they know the temple is just a smokescreen to gain followers (i.e. there is no real EEG). Lolth would want to have a way to pull followers away from Zuggtmoy and Iuz while expanding her own power base. There were only 2 NPCs that I recall that were part of her faction (there may have been others, but none came up when I ran it last time), Laerath and the male magic user that hid the Orb of Golden Death from the Iuz High Cleric. Laerath should probably be switched over to Zuggtmoy (or used as a dupe by Eclvdra as I did to setup GDQ1-7), but the male magic user needs to stay as a servant of Lolth for him to make sense.

Oh, as for the use of human males by Lolth, please realize that 99% of what you know about Lolth was written after this adventure, mostly by RA Salvatore and other Forgotten Realms authors. Drow were not a matriarchy initially, nor limited to only female clerics; all that came later. Originally, Lolth wasn't even a goddess, just a demon lord, since in 1E there was little difference between a lesser god and a powerful demon lord or archdevil.

The topic is "Running T1-4." If anything here is a spoiler for you, you shouldn't be in the thread at all.

And I agree that Lareth makes sense as someone trying to pull followers away from EEG/Zuggtmoy. However, in T1 he's presented as aiding the Temple. Like he's not pretending to aid them. He's actually aiding them. He's a man with two masters. That really doesn't make sense with how clerics are presented anymore. I would buy Iuz before I'd buy Lolth.

Also, as far as I can tell, it's not that EEG doesn't exist. (The Princes of Elemental Evil certainly exist, and they're no creation of Zuggtmoy!) Yes, the cult that built the Temple and is now rebuilding it in T1-4 was being tricked by Zuggtmoy, but the EEG had nothing to do with the Temple in the module... for the most part. Zuggtmoy decided to use the cult to gain power, but the EEG already had temples and followers. Once Zuggtmoy was trapped, the cults begin worshipping the EEG and Zuggtmoy isn't there to interfere anymore. That's why they said there were seven factions: the four elemental factions, Iuz, Lolth, and Zuggtmoy. Once Zuggtmoy was trapped, the four elemental factions were, in effect, actually worshipping the EEG they always thought they were.

 

[MackMcMacky]

I agree. While Gygax never specifies the drow are matriarchal, probably so as not to pigeon-hole them for other DMs' personal campaigns, it's pretty clear that was the implication. Females are the preferred priestesses (being able to achieve a much higher level than males) and usually held commanding positions over males. I think later material (2nd Edition, R.A.Salvatore novels) officialized the drow as a matriarchal society. Not 100% certain on that, tho, since I did not follow later publishings closely as I didn't care for the popularization of the drow by then.

I've always appreciated Gygax's restraint. It encouraged innovation. In my campaign, I have Drow enclaves worshipping other demon princes/princesses and the culture of those enclaves are not necessarily matriarchal.

 

[Libramarian]

To give you a different perspective from the majority of replies here, you don't HAVE to put a ton of work into rationalizing and expanding T1-4 to have a good time with it. I ran the Temple pretty much off the page as a big roguelike dungeoncrawl and we had a lot of fun.

As others have mentioned the plot has serious editorial goofs and doesn't make a lot of sense as written. Thankfully IME putting it all together and figuring out the motivations of everyone is not a key part of the playing experience. Just foreshadow Lareth a little bit before they get to the Moathouse and eventually make it clear that the Temple must be destroyed, and things will work out. The rest is just colour. It's important that it's there, but the appearance of underlying complexity is all that is required for effect. You don't have to actually work everything out.

If the PCs are ever interrogating an NPC as to their motivations and you don't know what to say, just respond like the guy at the end of The Warriors: "No reason, I just like doing stuff like that." *creepy laughter*

In fact I think if you're worried about a big dungeon being grindy the worst thing you can do (other than reduce the loot in the dungeon) is to constantly divert the players away from it. The key to keeping it on track is to steer into the skid as it were and focus tightly on the dungeon until it's completed. It's of course fine to make the dungeon itself more interesting and dynamic (preferably by sharpening up your DM procedures than by scripting encounters), but it's usually a mistake to pad out the campaign with adventures outside the dungeon. The thing that makes it fun is the sense of growing power and progress through it. You interfere with that when you pull the players away from it. It makes the dungeon feel more grindy even though in theory the campaign is more varied and interesting.

A good dungeoncrawl should be addictive...not in the sense of causing the players problems elsewhere in their lives but they should itching between sessions to get back into it and pull the lever again. Don't "detox" them constantly with loot-poor side quests and prolix NPCs.

So I think the entirety of T1-4 is best run like a funnel: run Hommlet as a sandbox with other adventures thrown into the mix, but when the PCs get into the Temple let them grind through to conclusion. I think the only thing my PCs did in Nulb was talk with Mother Screng/Y'dey a few times.

Around Hommlet I had Falcon's Peak (old Dungeon mag adventure) as a red herring for the Moathouse, and Ironwood Gorge, Hammers of the God and Tower of the Stargazer (OSR modules) in the area as side quests. An easy way to introduce other adventures into the campaign is to give the NPCs in the Welcome Wench rumors/motivations to pursue them.

 

[Libramarian]

Out of curiosity, how long did it take for others to run this to completion? I expect players to get 8-10 levels out of T1-4, so I expect at least 5-6 months. We meet once a week.

Took us about 5 months playing 1-2 times a week.

Any recommendations on Greyhawk campaigns/modules that tie well into ToEE post-completion?

The PCs are celebrating the destruction of the Temple at a sumptuous feast with the Viscount in Verbobonc.

Just then a page bursts through the doors shouting M'lord, M'lord, Giants are terrorizing the countryside!

Then play the Ghostbusters theme song.

 

[Luz]

If the PCs are ever interrogating an NPC as to their motivations and you don't know what to say, just respond like the guy at the end of The Warriors: "No reason, I just like doing stuff like that." *creepy laughter*

Lol that's awesome. "Adventurers, come out to playyy..."

In fact I think if you're worried about a big dungeon being grindy the worst thing you can do (other than reduce the loot in the dungeon) is to constantly divert the players away from it. The key to keeping it on track is to steer into the skid as it were and focus tightly on the dungeon until it's completed. It's of course fine to make the dungeon itself more interesting and dynamic (preferably by sharpening up your DM procedures than by scripting encounters), but it's usually a mistake to pad out the campaign with adventures outside the dungeon. The thing that makes it fun is the sense of growing power and progress through it. You interfere with that when you pull the players away from it. It makes the dungeon feel more grindy even though in theory the campaign is more varied and interesting.

A good dungeoncrawl should be addictive...not in the sense of causing the players problems elsewhere in their lives but they should itching between sessions to get back into it and pull the lever again. Don't "detox" them constantly with loot-poor side quests and prolix NPCs.

Maybe so, it really depends on the group of players. IME the players naturally gravitated back and forth and not by my design. Often I found myself scrambling for material because they'd leave the dungeon for whatever reasons, which is a sign of a good campaign that they're comfortable enough to know they can switch gears. I love dungeon crawls and could probably run them forever, but frequently players want to know what lies beyond the dungeon. YMMV.

 

[twizty]

Knowing my players, they'll be too afraid to leave the dungeon once they're in. Historically, they go in murderhobo style and make a lot of noise. So if they do leave part way through, the bad guys know they've been there and have time to recoup, plan and reinforce. I have a feeling they're going to try and go in one fell swoop.

So, we had our day one session last night. A solid 8 hrs. Thought I'd post how it went, which I found to be extremely amusing.

They escorted a caravan into town carrying fine wines and such for the Inn and fought off a small group of bandits. Ostler was pleased and gave them a free nights stay because of it. They then began their job hunt, talking around to various NPC's to find out if there are any things need dealing with. Ostler, Ranos and Gremag, the carter, carpenter...so on and so forth. I used one of the side quests out of the conversion notes and sent them after what they thought were giant spiders.

I changed it up a bit. They found the small grove where the spiders had been, only a couple blights had moved in and taken over. They fought the blights, damn near TPK'd in the process. Went back to the Inn to rest up, went back to finish the spiders only to find the spiders already dead once they got deeper in. Doing some scouring, they found a bloodied cairn, melted candles and a holy symbol of the elder elemental eye.

Refusing to touch the cairn they went back to town to get a cleric from St Cuthbert's church, talking with Calmert and then Terjon. Terjon had a brief aside with Calmert before begrudgingly going to the sight with the party. Only they hadn't noticed they were being followed all day by one of Ranos and Gremag's minions who promptly cleaned up the site when they left to involve the church.

The site cleaned of the cairn, the dead spiders and no footprints to be found (they have no rogue, ranger or anyone capable of tracking). Terjon yelled at them for wasting his time and trying to cause panic in town. The High Elf wizard of the party yelled at him and accused him of being in on it because of this aside with Calmert back in the church. The aside was Terjon telling Calmert not to speak of this to anyone until he's confirmed what's going on that he didn't want to spread undue fear in town.

And that's where day 1 ended. Discovery of something foul afoot and accosting the local Chief Canon of conspiracy. This...should be an interesting campaign.

 

[Luz]

That sounds like a wonderful start to the campaign. Love the involvement (and subsequent chastising) from Terjon with Rannos and Gremag already up to no good. This sounds like some great dynamic interactions with some of the major npcs. Good stuff, keep us posted!

 

[Weiley31]

I'm running this right now (for the third time, first time with 5e rules) and it is still a blast. If you haven't got it already, I highly recommend this for conversion notes:

http://newworldscoaching.ca/downloadable/toee.pdf

My advice is to take your time with it. The Village of Hommlet is so well crafted that you may not notice it upon just reading the module; at a glance it seems like a well fleshed-out town with some pretty standard low level monsters in the ruins nearby. Its how it unfolds when experienced in-play, the way the town comes to life so naturally and effortlessly pulls the PCs into the adventure. As with any module, players will only get what they put into it, so I would encourage you to give them reasons to explore the Village and familiarize themselves with the townsfolk. Maybe the rogue must go to the tanner to repair his leather armour, or the wizard seeks an apprenticeship with Rufus. Character Backgrounds can be very useful here and lead to various side quests with npcs, something I strongly advise you prep to help get the PCs up to at least 2nd level before tackling the moathouse.
This link has some excellent resources, check out under the "New Ideas and Concepts" heading for some good side quest ideas.

Regarding the sparse, simplicity of the Village and its commoners: this only helps make Hommlet a more believable setting, as well as allows its more colourful npcs (like Elmo, Burne and Rufus, etc.) to stand out so the PCs will be more inclined to interact with them. Its important for the PCs to establish connections with at least a few of these npcs; at some point if the agents of evil (such as Rannos and Gremag) are exposed then having some of the town leaders vouch for the party will definitely make life easier.

IMC, after the party finished the moathouse, they had to take all their loot to Hommlet to cash in. This meant a trip to the money changer, who saw all the excess gear the party dragged back from the moathouse so he advised they take it to the trading post. The party proceeded to the trading post where they met Rannos and Gremag, who were quick to casually ask where they got all the goods. The party, feeling like town heroes, then went on to explain in great detail their exploits at the moathouse, much to the hidden disdain of Rannos and Gremag. This led to a later assassination attempt on the party who, through some smart play and luck, managed to thwart. Rannos and Gremag managed to escape, but had been exposed and the PCs were able to capture one of their lackeys. Because they had earlier established a good rapport with some of the town leaders, they had an easier time gaining their support and trust. Now the PCs have learned more about the Temple and Nulb - which just so happens where Rannos and Gremag have fled.

Once you get the ball rolling, ToEE really creates an organic flow to the campaign. I've read many complain that the Temple itself is just a long slog, and if played non-stop like a megadungeon it probably is. But there are so many opportunities for intrigue in the entire adventure that it's likely the party will spend as much time outside as they do exploring the Temple. That's been my experience each time.

Ooooooh thank you!!! I'm thinking of running a few of my fave/good older modules and Temple of Elemental Evil is one of em. That 5E conversion guide link will help!