D&D 5E Running T1-4 (ToEE) for the first time. Any advice?

[dagger]

I would not run the adventure using 1e/2e rules. Simply put, the mechanics are needlessly cumbersome, and it's really not that difficult to run it with 5e rules. It's worth it to avoid THAC0.

I've run the town, the moathouse, and the temple grounds basically on the fly more or less, and it's not to difficult to do. The notes provided by Luz would be very useful, too. The most time consuming part for me was rebalancing for a part of 7 or 8, but I'd have to do that with T1-4 anyways.

I disagree, both 1e and 5e are fast and furious.

 

[Luz]

Further ideas to keep things varied, quoted from this thread:

FreddyP wrote: "One idea I had was to use a rival adventuring party. When the heroes discover that the friendly/not-so-friendly group is using the bad guys against one another, they might feel more privy to do so themselves.

"The other idea I had was to have people from the various temples out and about mostly in Nulb but perhaps even Homlett as well. Have them staging attacks on other rival groups. For instance, the Air Temple has a lucrative caravan coming through from Dyvers. The Earth Temple recruits in Nulb for an assault on the caravan outside of town. They're in bars recruiting people. They try to recruit people who are spies to the Fire Temple. Now the Fire Temple starts recruiting people and will decide which side to help at the last moment. Think Gangs of New York but in Nulb.

Just telling the heroes "the temple factions are in disarray and are always jockeying for position" doesn't mean squat to them unless they can do something to change the position. The heroes need immersed in the petty politics of Nulb, Homlett and the Temple for the campaign to come alive and not just be a huge dungeon crawl.

Also, there are a lot of ogres, trolls and bugbears in this dungeon. This suggests to me there are decent sized tribes of each creature nearby. In the Kron Hills and Gnarley Woods, there is plenty of room for some big humanoid camps. I want my players to eventually deal with the chieftans of these tribes. Perhaps removing one of these tribes can affect that race inside the temple."

ChrisL wrote: "In fact, the troll chieftain and perhaps bugbear chieftain on level two fit perfectly. A rival tribe in the forests nearby could add an interesting twist. Imagine PC's recruiting a tribe to help them clear out the Temple...not LG PC's, of course."

 

[MackMcMacky]

I disagree, both 1e and 5e are fast and furious.

Yeah, I played 1st edition for 6 years. I did not find it or THAC0 cumbersome. I did not have an adult teaching me how to play and I began playing at the age of 12. So, a 12-year-old had a great deal of fun with 1st edition and understood the rules without help.

Sometimes, I think some folks who weren't "there" make a lot of assumptions.

 

[ephemeron]

Also, there are a lot of ogres, trolls and bugbears in this dungeon. This suggests to me there are decent sized tribes of each creature nearby. In the Kron Hills and Gnarley Woods, there is plenty of room for some big humanoid camps. I want my players to eventually deal with the chieftans of these tribes. Perhaps removing one of these tribes can affect that race inside the temple.

p. 43 of the original module has a bit about how Temple agents "roam near and far to bring all sorts of evil humans and humanoids into service." That could be expanded into a whole series of adventures that don't even involve setting foot in a dungeon -- who are these agents? Where are they going after recruits? How many potential rivalries can the PC's exploit, and how many potential allies can they make there? Etc.

 

[Shiroiken]

Yeah, but Lolth's involvement doesn't make sense at all. If we take the 3e story then nobody wants to help Tharizdun, and if you just stick to 1e stuff and you know anything about GDQ1-7 it doesn't make any sense for Lolth to be interested in helping the Elder Elemental God at all. I mean, sure, you can say that this all happens before GDQ, but if the players don't realize that then it's just confusing. IIRC, Lareth is Lolth's only direct presence, and he's a human male.

Spoiler Alert, but at this point, I think anyone this far in is too late anyway.

It makes sense for there to be a Lolth faction, since they know the temple is just a smokescreen to gain followers (i.e. there is no real EEG). Lolth would want to have a way to pull followers away from Zuggtmoy and Iuz while expanding her own power base. There were only 2 NPCs that I recall that were part of her faction (there may have been others, but none came up when I ran it last time), Laerath and the male magic user that hid the Orb of Golden Death from the Iuz High Cleric. Laerath should probably be switched over to Zuggtmoy (or used as a dupe by Eclvdra as I did to setup GDQ1-7), but the male magic user needs to stay as a servant of Lolth for him to make sense.

Oh, as for the use of human males by Lolth, please realize that 99% of what you know about Lolth was written after this adventure, mostly by RA Salvatore and other Forgotten Realms authors. Drow were not a matriarchy initially, nor limited to only female clerics; all that came later. Originally, Lolth wasn't even a goddess, just a demon lord, since in 1E there was little difference between a lesser god and a powerful demon lord or archdevil.

 

[twizty]

Seriously, why didn't I come here weeks ago? A week out and now I've got tons of awesome ideas thanks to you guys. Guess I know what I'm doing for the next week!

 

[JonnyP71]

Drow were not a matriarchy initially, nor limited to only female clerics; all that came later. Originally, Lolth wasn't even a goddess, just a demon lord, since in 1E there was little difference between a lesser god and a powerful demon lord or archdevil.

While the early mentions of Drow did not explicitly state 'Drow society is matriarchal', it was certain hinted at. The earliest detailed write up about them I can find is in the G1-3 series of modules, and female Drow are described as being bigger, more intelligent, capable of higher level advancement, and possessing more innate magical powers.

Even as a 12-13 year old reading those modules for the 1st time in the early 80s, it was logical to me that it meant that females were the dominant power in their society. And D3 Vault of the Drow merely backed that up.

 

[Luz]

While the early mentions of Drow did not explicitly state 'Drow society is matriarchal', it was certain hinted at. The earliest detailed write up about them I can find is in the G1-3 series of modules, and female Drow are described as being bigger, more intelligent, capable of higher level advancement, and possessing more innate magical powers.

Even as a 12-13 year old reading those modules for the 1st time in the early 80s, it was logical to me that it meant that females were the dominant power in their society. And D3 Vault of the Drow merely backed that up.

I agree. While Gygax never specifies the drow are matriarchal, probably so as not to pigeon-hole them for other DMs' personal campaigns, it's pretty clear that was the implication. Females are the preferred priestesses (being able to achieve a much higher level than males) and usually held commanding positions over males. I think later material (2nd Edition, R.A.Salvatore novels) officialized the drow as a matriarchal society. Not 100% certain on that, tho, since I did not follow later publishings closely as I didn't care for the popularization of the drow by then.

 

[twizty]

Couple other quick questions.

Out of curiosity, how long did it take for others to run this to completion? I expect players to get 8-10 levels out of T1-4, so I expect at least 5-6 months. We meet once a week.

Any recommendations on Greyhawk campaigns/modules that tie well into ToEE post-completion?

The more I read about Greyhawk the more I like it over Forgotten Realms. It has a far more grittier feel, fits my style a lot more. It may become my main campaign setting.

 

[Stormdale]

Couple other quick questions.

Out of curiosity, how long did it take for others to run this to completion? I expect players to get 8-10 levels out of T1-4, so I expect at least 5-6 months. We meet once a week.

Any recommendations on Greyhawk campaigns/modules that tie well into ToEE post-completion?

The more I read about Greyhawk the more I like it over Forgotten Realms. It has a far more grittier feel, fits my style a lot more. It may become my main campaign setting.

With my guys it would take at least twice that time, maybe 3 times- they ted to get distracted easily and wander off in all sorts of random directions.

Traditionally it has been used as a lead in to the Slavers series- not far off on the Wild Coast/Pomarj- but if you do the entire T1-4 then you are likely to be to high a level for A1-4.

If I were to run it as part of a "classics campaign" then I' be looking at Ghost Tower of Inverness (maybe even as a side trek as a change of pace during the T1-4 series), White Plume Mountain (again possible side trek) but think it would lend well it lost Caverns of Tsojcanth/Forgotten Temple of Tharzidun and then into ye olde classic GDQ.

I've run games in both settings for a long, long time but these days prefer the feel of pre Wars/the original era Greyhawk but for me that is also partly nostalgia.

Stormdale