Sage PC Class?

[Draugin]

Hi! I'm developing a Sage PC Class but I need some extra inspiration.
Do you know an existing work (your ideas, or in the web or in any splatbook) that could help me creating the Sage?
The idea is to create a minor spellcaster (mainly abjurations and divinations) with a great focus on knowledge and many related special abilities. The class has been developed around the bard, but it starts to become something different and interesting.
The main goal is to model an appealing and balanced class with a concept that obviously hasn't the same cutting edge as a fighter or a wizard (the risk is to make a useless and underpowered PC class).
Thank you for your help!

P.S.: I'll post it here when I'll have more to say!

 

[AeroDm]

I think it would really help to better define what _sort_ of things you are looking for. Obviously I'd assume it would have its own Bardic Knowledge type ability along with bard/adept casting progression focused heavily on divination types?

But then what sort of features are you looking for? Just bonuses to knowledge type skills, augury at will, the ability to make prophecy? I guess I am not really sure just how such a character would fit into a group, but I'd like to flesh out some specifics if you have any.

 

[Draugin]

I think it would really help to better define what _sort_ of things you are looking for. Obviously I'd assume it would have its own Bardic Knowledge type ability along with bard/adept casting progression focused heavily on divination types?

Sorry I was too foggy.

So far my Sage has got:
-d6 hit dice (d4 was too low),
-poor BAB (but it could be upgraded to medium),
-strong Will,
-8 skill points (base),
-casts arcane spells as a bard, but with a different list (too long to translate now since I've written it all in Italian); it has got many divinations, some abjurations and enchantments and a few from other schools (no flashy spells). It has access to some spells from the cleric and druid lists (mainly divinations).
-bardic knowledge,
-some nonmagical healing abilities and bonuses in certain situations (I will post that).

But then what sort of features are you looking for? Just bonuses to knowledge type skills, augury at will, the ability to make prophecy? I guess I am not really sure just how such a character would fit into a group, but I'd like to flesh out some specifics if you have any.

The Sage class should cover the literate/erudite sort of characters (historians, philosophers, physicians/surgeons, travellers etc.) but should also make an interesting PC. Think about Marco Polo, Erodotus, ecc. and put them in a fantasy world.
Yes, I know there is a generic Expert NpC class, but I'm trying to make a specific PC class.
Obviously he should be a backup character, covering the role of a bard and sometimes that of a cleric (his nonmagical healing is good).

For example, I'm looking for some really cool uses for the Knowledge skills, special abilities limited to the sage class (something like "trapfinding" for Search and Disable Device to the rogue class).
What can you suggest for Knowledge (history) and Knowledge (nobility and royalty)?

Hope I was clearer now.

 

[AeroDm]

First I'd probably not give it 8 skill pts/level. Not that it doesn't fit the concept, but assumedly this character is Int based (granting more skills) and you don't want to break the iconic 8 skill rogue standard.

I think some of the talents in the d20modern book may be useful. The Smart Hero has some talents that allow him to strategise and grant bonuses to skill check and attack rolls for short durations, use his intelligence bonus in place of strength or dexterity, and so on.

In addition, things like skill focus or skill mastery (take 10) on knowledges and the like would probably help.

 

[JDowling]

possible interesting uses for Knowledge (history) and Knowledge (nobility and royalty)...

Knowledge (nobility and royalty)
Blackmail: with a high enough check you are able to unearth some secret that a specific ruler or royal family has tried to cover up. The discovery of this secret by the general populice would be scandalous at best and lead to civil war at worst. Of course, royalty is probably unlikely to react kindly to being blackmailed so hijinx ensues

Knowledge (history)
"History is written by winners": With enough knowledge of history you can create a plausable "what if" scenario and then "discover" (make up) plausable evidence that has been lost thus far that points to the fact that your "what if" was really what happened, and not the generally accepted history. This followed with successful diplomacy and/or bluff checks could lead to an official rewriting of historical events.

Those were two ideas that came to mind, but I'm not sure if that was anything like what you are looking for, and they certainly aren't honest . But perhaps a little revision of history and blackmail is necessary to help foil the evil overlord of the kingdom next door?

 

[Draugin]

First I'd probably not give it 8 skill pts/level. Not that it doesn't fit the concept, but assumedly this character is Int based (granting more skills) and you don't want to break the iconic 8 skill rogue standard.

I think I'm not breaking anything...
Rogues have a lot more class skills and this is their strenght also.
And as you say, it fits the concept, and 6 skills points/level put them again to bard level but sages cannot match bards combat abilities.

I think some of the talents in the d20modern book may be useful. The Smart Hero has some talents that allow him to strategise and grant bonuses to skill check and attack rolls for short durations, use his intelligence bonus in place of strength or dexterity, and so on.

Thanks I already gave a look but I think I'll do that again.

In addition, things like skill focus or skill mastery (take 10) on knowledges and the like would probably help.

Yes already thought.

Thank you!

 

[Draugin]

possible interesting uses for Knowledge (history) and Knowledge (nobility and royalty)...
<snip>
Those were two ideas that came to mind, but I'm not sure if that was anything like what you are looking for, and they certainly aren't honest . But perhaps a little revision of history and blackmail is necessary to help foil the evil overlord of the kingdom next door?

Thanks for the ideas! They're good, but they weren't quite what I was looking for.

I'm trying to write some rules and class abilities, something like "trapfinding" or "bardic music", but relying on Knowledge skills, and something that sages can use at least once in a while.

For example, I've written a sort of divination/find the path/commune with nature nonmagical ability that lets the sage make some guessings abut the surrounding area. This is based on some Knowledge skills, depending on where you are (Knowledge (dungeoneering) if you are in a cave, Knowledge (architecture & engineering) if you are in a construction, etc.).

I couldn't find something as useful for some other Knowledge skill, thoug!

Thanks!

 

[JDowling]

You could expand upon the idea you had for the "location" knowledge skills.

In a similar way you could use knowledge (history) to "guess based on reoccuring patterns in history" what is vaguely likely to happen within the next week (in regard to a specific kind of event that has happened before: war, demihuman invasion, discovery of a new land, any reoccuring event).

nobility and royalty could allow you a similar guess into what the motivations of a certain noble are, and/or what they are likely to do within the next week. The duke has an important announcement to make at court tomarrow - you can guess at what it might be.

Basically just allow the divination spell to be mimiced with knowledge skills.

EDIT: by making it a sort of general divination via related knowledge skill ability you can shift some of the finding of useful situations onto the shoulders of your players.

 

[the Jester]

The knowledgable hero archetype is actually a really cool one... hard to do in dnd if you aren't using major spells, but I applaud the attempt! Let's see if I can help some...

I like the idea of substituting your Int bonus for your Str or Dex bonus a couple of times per day or something, that's a good one. Maybe something akin to Slippery Mind? Perhaps bonuses against Illusion?

You could give a sage a free Knowledge check to recognize disguised individuals (nobility & royalty to recognize aristocrats, religion to recognize the local priest, local to recognize the local beggar, etc). Or maybe let the sage substitue an appropriate Knowledge check for her initiative? (-Knowledge (nature) against fey or animals, dungeoneering against oozes or aberrations, etc).

I hope some of those ideas help... good luck!

 

[Golem2176]

For more information on this project you might want to reference the AD&D 2nd Edition Book Sages & Specialists.