Salvageable Innovations from 4e for Nonenthusiasts

[Raven Crowking]

One aspect of rpg combat that irritates me is that the biggest, most effective powers tend to be used at, or near, the start of a fight, which is the complete opposite to the way it works in fiction. This creates a sense of action 'falling' rather than rising. I understand that Exalted has some mechanics to support the delayed use of major powers, though I'm unfamiliar with the game.

If those powers recharge for every battle, and if there is no cost/risk associated with using them, then of course the big guns get trotted out first. Cost and risk mean that big guns get used when they are necessary, possibly as a last "Hail Mary" attempt before defeat.

However, to use such a system successfully, you have to require the cost be paid, and/or be willing to accept that the risks involved will sometimes manifest.

RC

 

[GSHamster]

If those powers recharge for every battle, and if there is no cost/risk associated with using them, then of course the big guns get trotted out first. Cost and risk mean that big guns get used when they are necessary, possibly as a last "Hail Mary" attempt before defeat.

If you really wanted to push big abilities to the end of the fight, you could use a net-gain resource (like land in Magic: the Gathering).

It might be an interesting feel to combat, as the first few rounds would be light fencing with each other, but the fight would eventually end in a flurry of big hits.

 

[Celebrim]

If you really wanted to push big abilities to the end of the fight, you could use a net-gain resource (like land in Magic: the Gathering).

It might be an interesting feel to combat, as the first few rounds would be light fencing with each other, but the fight would eventually end in a flurry of big hits.

You could do something like 'Iron Heroes' token based powers system. I wasn't happy with the exact implementation or the system as a whole, but the mechanic itself was the bomb.

 

[Ainamacar]

You could do something like 'Iron Heroes' token based powers system. I wasn't happy with the exact implementation or the system as a whole, but the mechanic itself was the bomb.

Momentum systems can perform a similar role. (I'm only vaguely familiar with how Iron Heroes' tokens work). I think gain in such systems is usually based on obtaining good outcomes, but I can think of others. Fighting games where you build up a meter the more you are hit could mesh nicely with pawsplay's idea of hit points as "suffering." Another mechanism would be tying it to risk, which would encourage reckless behavior. Having all in play at once, perhaps dependent on class or archetype is also possible. Maybe the barbarian gets momentum for recklessness and taking damage, the rogue for capitalizing on initiative and making clean getaways, and the druid for enhancing or working with the environment. Then, if you want players to wait to use their big guns, incentivize them to play to type.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Jumping back in, one thing that just now grinds on me. Incorporeal, I believe, is done right with 4e.

With 3.x, every time an attack is done, roll 50/50 to see if you miss.

With 4e, just half any damage you do.

Nowadays I rank 50/50 incorporeal miss chance right up there with AD&D's level drain.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

With 3.x, every time an attack is done, roll 50/50 to see if you miss.

With 4e, just half any damage you do.

I can see the benefits of both mechanics, but agree that the 4Ed approach is definitely easier bookkeeping.

 

[pawsplay]

Jumping back in, one thing that just now grinds on me. Incorporeal, I believe, is done right with 4e.

With 3.x, every time an attack is done, roll 50/50 to see if you miss.

With 4e, just half any damage you do.

Nowadays I rank 50/50 incorporeal miss chance right up there with AD&D's level drain.

I've disliked it since AD&D. It wasn't present in BECMI.

 

[MarkB]

If those powers recharge for every battle, and if there is no cost/risk associated with using them, then of course the big guns get trotted out first. Cost and risk mean that big guns get used when they are necessary, possibly as a last "Hail Mary" attempt before defeat.

However, to use such a system successfully, you have to require the cost be paid, and/or be willing to accept that the risks involved will sometimes manifest.

RC

This is one area where 4e's "bloodied" status can help. If you want the big guns held in reserve for finishing moves, make them only usable when the target is bloodied, or when the wielder is bloodied, or simply make them more effective in those circumstances.

4e does already have a lot of powers that work like this, but they're mostly just individual powers or class features, not an over-arching design principle.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

4e does already have a lot of powers that work like this, but they're mostly just individual powers or class features, not an over-arching design principle

[MARTHASTEWART]And that's a good thing.[/MARTHASTEWART]

I really hate to see players at a table gleefully awaiting the chance to get bloodied- the way otherplayers look at the player of a dwaven fighter with a regen ability in our group springs to mind ("You know, we should just keep injuring him so the regen never turns off...")- or griping about a power they never get to use because they never quite lose enough HP.

 

[Stormonu]

Jumping back in, one thing that just now grinds on me. Incorporeal, I believe, is done right with 4e.

With 3.x, every time an attack is done, roll 50/50 to see if you miss.

With 4e, just half any damage you do.

Nowadays I rank 50/50 incorporeal miss chance right up there with AD&D's level drain.

I just used odd/even instead of an extra roll (this ensures that 1=miss, 20=hit).