Salvageable Innovations from 4e for Nonenthusiasts

[MarkB]

[MARTHASTEWART]And that's a good thing.[/MARTHASTEWART]

I really hate to see players at a table gleefully awaiting the chance to get bloodied- the way otherplayers look at the player of a dwaven fighter with a regen ability in our group springs to mind ("You know, we should just keep injuring him so the regen never turns off...")- or griping about a power they never get to use because they never quite lose enough HP.

That's a good point, and I've seen it myself with certain races and classes, but it seems like this would be a 'feature' of any "suffering" mechanic - the players are likely to have a nigh-masochistic enthusiasm for taking enough punishment to 'power up' for their finishing moves.

 

[Raven Crowking]

the fighter is eager to jump into battle and start throwing his axe around without care

Just like real life! Everyone knows that fights in real life rewards the reckless!

Maybe some people like to play things 100% always safe and slow. I say, bring on the blood!

That is, however, pretty funny. There are a lot of combat systems where you use more realistic, or more cinematic, tactics, and combat is faster. I think 4e combat would have been far better had WotC not chosen to inflate hp as they did.

YMMV.


RC

 

[mmadsen]

Just like real life! Everyone knows that fights in real life rewards the reckless!

What D&D often lacks is a sense of combat as chicken, where reckless bravery is simultaneously stupid, because it could get you killed, and smart, because the other guy doesn't want to risk getting killed, so he'll run away, rather than fight someone who isn't scared of him.

 

[mmadsen]

Who plays D&D to emulate real life?

Obviously no one plays D&D to emulate their own lives as students and office drones, but a fantasy world of adventure isn't completely untethered from reality, either.

 

[mmadsen]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if you want a game with horrible, deadly, gritty, realistic fighting...

...D&D is not your game of choice.

No one requested horrible or gritty, and I don't think they want deadly for the PCs, either, although they do want that for the orcs.

Not all elements of realism hurt the game and make it less fun, and not all elements of unrealism help the game and make it more fun.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

My response to this is: "This is D&D."

Need the 300 angry Sparta pose and extra-large font choice in all caps, while kicking sarcastic commenter into a hundreds-foot deep pit in slowmo.

 

[JamesonCourage]

Allow me to put it another way, then:

For me, D&D is a game in which characters take large risks. The inherent idea of adventuring is in of itself proof that adventurers are both risk taking and likely insane. As such, risks should be encouraged, such as fighters charging into combat. The bloodied mechanic encourages players to play risky, rather then to be slow and safe.

Some may find this "unrealistic" and make sarcastic comments about it. My response to this is: "This is D&D."

D&D, the game that has historically encouraged you to play carefully once you're sufficiently injured (low on HP), lest you run out and die? That D&D?

D&D has historically supported a cautious approach to play much more than a reckless approach. People carry around 10 foot poles or take 20 on search checks (depending on your edition) for a reason. I'd offer a twist on something you said, very recently:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if you want a game with reckless, careless, hasty, unrealistic fighting...

...D&D is not your game of choice.

But, I'm a big fan of house rules. Always have been. As always, play what you like

 

[Raven Crowking]

What D&D often lacks is a sense of combat as chicken, where reckless bravery is simultaneously stupid, because it could get you killed, and smart, because the other guy doesn't want to risk getting killed, so he'll run away, rather than fight someone who isn't scared of him.

It used to be called "Morale".

Who plays D&D to emulate real life?

Obviously no one plays D&D to emulate their own lives as students and office drones, but a fantasy world of adventure isn't completely untethered from reality, either.

No one requested horrible or gritty, and I don't think they want deadly for the PCs, either, although they do want that for the orcs.

Not all elements of realism hurt the game and make it less fun, and not all elements of unrealism help the game and make it more fun.

D&D, the game that has historically encouraged you to play carefully once you're sufficiently injured (low on HP), lest you run out and die? That D&D?

D&D has historically supported a cautious approach to play much more than a reckless approach. People carry around 10 foot poles or take 20 on search checks (depending on your edition) for a reason.

Thanks for the answers.

I, personally, prefer that there actually be "risks" when the characters "take risks". If the game is set up so that what is supposedly "risky" is actually the smartest thing to do, that doesn't feel like a game where characters are taking risks at all.

YMMV, obviously.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

But hitting bloodied is a risk, because now you have significantly less HP.

Meh.

If it seems that way to you, though, you should absolutely play what you like.


RC

 

[MarkB]

Thanks for the answers.

I, personally, prefer that there actually be "risks" when the characters "take risks". If the game is set up so that what is supposedly "risky" is actually the smartest thing to do, that doesn't feel like a game where characters are taking risks at all.

YMMV, obviously.


RC

But on the other hand, in my experience any game where taking risks isn't a smart thing to do will also turn out to be a game where characters don't take risks at all. YMMV, of course.

There is, incidentally, an entire class build in 4e constructed around the concept of taking greater risks for greater rewards - the Bravura Warlord. Just a couple of examples from the build:

• Class feature Bravura Presence. Allies who can see the warlord when they spend an action point to make an extra attack can choose to invoke his Bravura Presence. If they do, then if they hit on their attack they gain a free basic attack or move action to use immediately afterwards, but if they miss they grant combat advantage for the next round.
• At-Will attack power Brash Assault. After you attack your target, you leave an opening allowing them to make a free attack on you with combat advantage if they choose - but if they do, they provoke a free attack from one of your allies, also with combat advantage.

It's a fun class to play in practice. Taking advantage of his class features does impose increased risks, but it provides increased rewards when those risks pay off.