Salvageable Innovations from 4e for Nonenthusiasts

[Dannyalcatraz]

As I've said before, hit points are terrible for emulating action and adventure stories.
They're certainly terrible for emulating Tolkien's Hobbit and Lord of the Rings stories, in which Bard kills Smaug with a single arrow, Legolas kills a fell beast in the night with a single arrow, the Witch King of Angmar dies from one stab from a lowly hobbit and a follow-up by Eowyn, etc.

That only shows us that there is no One True Mechanic, no One Vitality Design to simulate all Characters, and in an RPG Model them.

 

[Raven Crowking]

That only shows us that there is no One True Mechanic, no One Vitality Design to simulate all Characters, and in an RPG Model them.

If you accept the premise, yes.

I agree with your conclusion, but I do not think that the premise from which you are drawing that conclusion is true.


RC

 

[Redbadge]

That only shows us that there is no One True Mechanic, no One Vitality Design to simulate all Characters, and in an RPG Model them.

I think exception based design can help with this some, such that corner cases where the GM or designer is not happy can simply be changed to what exactly is needed or intended.

For example, I don't see any reason that the Witch-King of Angmar can't be given specific traits such that he can be easily defeated by "a blade crafted to defeat him from long ago, and recovered from the barrow mounds by Tom Bombadil. He is defeated as much by prophesy as by prowess, for Eowyn is meant to be there, and meant to deliver the killing stroke." I think exceptions are useful in any edition and any system.

Like pawsplay said, if I want to give Smaug 15 hp (or vulnerability to a particular person or particular weapon, or both), there should be no reason I can't, no matter what I'm playing.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Here's what I'm getting at.

My preferred overall system is HERO (with 3.5Ed D&D a close second, FWIW). In it, I can create characters who have to be whittled down, ones who go down easily, ones seemingly impevious to harm, and humble characters capable of one-shotting beings with incredible defenses.

But it doesn't necessarily do them all well. So, while I can and have run virtually everything in HERO, there are campaigns in which I opted for running games within an RPG designed specifically to model that kind of game instead of HERO.

As for exception based design- TRUE exception based design- I hate it. Giving a character a specific vulnerability to a certain kind of attack or environmental situation (Smaug's weak spot, Witch-King's problematic prophesy) isn't the same as having different rules for designing PCs and NPCs (4Ed).

 

[mmadsen]

LOTR isn't an "Action and adventure" genre. It's literary high fantasy.

Don't be silly. Tolkien's works are definitely the kind of thing we'd like to emulate in a fantasy role-playing game like D&D, whatever genre labels you decided to apply.

And Robert E. Howard's works are similarly full of "high-level" characters dying with a single stroke -- just not the protagonist.

Further, none of those examples refute what I am saying. We don't know what kind of critical hit tables the GM was using, or what kind of Action Point mechanics.

Indeed, we don't know what kind of hit point-bypassing mechanics the GM-author was using -- or, rather, could theoretically use, if he were running a game rather than writing a story.

Further, you can perfectly simulate the death of Smaug by simply assuming he only has 15 hit points.

No, you can't really, because Smaug was in no danger and he clearly knew he was in no danger -- until he got hit by Bard's Black Arrow through the chink in his armor noticed by Bilbo, overheard by the Thrush, and passed on to Bard.

There's no rule that says hit points have to be used in the way they are used in D&D 4e.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean that hit points have no inherent character as a mechanic. They intrinsically make it difficult, even impossible, to have a character vulnerable to a single arrow but not guaranteed to die by four or five arrows -- without lots of additional rules to bypass them.

 

[Krensky]

I view that possibility as a plus. It's boring if absoutely every mook goes down in one hit. That is why I particularly like the "standard character" rules in Fantasy Craft. While your suggested rule is simpler, it isn't much simpler, and it's less versatile. Should a 1st level wizard with Strength 8 really be able to take out an ogre mook in one punch? Hence, few hit points is better than 1 hit point, in my view.

Something I was thinking about too, is that FC (like SC2.0 before it) does have a mook quality which makes standard NPCs with it automatically fail their damage saves. Adding on Tough, which makes a standard NPC able to fail more then one damage save, you can easily make a mook that will go down in exactly the number of hits you want.

 

[Lanefan]

Unfortunately, Bard's Black Arrow is not the best example to use here to point out how D+D can't model something using hit points, because the Arrow is something D+D can model perfectly while potentially ignoring hit points entirely.

It's an Arrow of Dragon Slaying. Shoot a Dragon with it (at +5 to hit, BTW) and the Dragon takes a boatload of damage (say, d6 + 5 tripled) and if that doesn't kill it (or force it to crash-land which will probably kill it) it has to save or die instantly anyway. Smaug failed his save.

The other example, that of Eowyn and Merry bringing down the Witch King, has always been to me a shining example of why the game needs two aspects: critical hits to which any creature or opponent is vulnerable, and little enough difference between low levels and high that a low-level Hobbit *can* pose a threat to a BBEG. Any game I ever play absolutely has to have this - that a little guy with a lucky strike at least has a chance of bringing down or seriously hurting a big guy, no matter who it is.

I think 3e really blew it on both of these: the Witch King is undead and thus not crit-able by 3e RAW, and there's way too much separation between low level and high for Merry - or Eowyn, for that matter - to pose him any kind of threat at all. I'm not sure how 4e works for things like this. It does, however, work in 1e; or can easily be made to.

Lan-"the Eowyn-Merry-Witch King battle is one of the reasons I got into this game in the first place"-efan

 

[Raven Crowking]

[MENTION=30936]Krensky[/MENTION]: Personally, I prefer to be surprised sometimes.

 

[pawsplay]

Don't be silly. Tolkien's works are definitely the kind of thing we'd like to emulate in a fantasy role-playing game like D&D, whatever genre labels you decided to apply.

Gygax disagreed. He included elves and such as a way to attract a segment of players he was interested in. He regarded Tolkien as a secondary influence, way down on the list from Howard, Leiber, Vance, and so forth.

And Robert E. Howard's works are similarly full of "high-level" characters dying with a single stroke -- just not the protagonist.

All the examples I can think of are wizards. Assuming Conan has 1d6 sneak attack from his years as a thief, and power attack, there is no problem at all protraying those scenes in D&D 3e or Conan d20.

No, you can't really, because Smaug was in no danger and he clearly knew he was in no danger -- until he got hit by Bard's Black Arrow through the chink in his armor noticed by Bilbo, overheard by the Thrush, and passed on to Bard.

Smaug is described as an old and pretty worn out dragon. You could say he has 30 hit points and DR 10/magic. Maybe Bard is a Pathfinder charcter with Penetrating Strike and Deadly Aim. One critical hit, one dead dragon.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean that hit points have no inherent character as a mechanic. They intrinsically make it difficult, even impossible, to have a character vulnerable to a single arrow but not guaranteed to die by four or five arrows -- without lots of additional rules to bypass them.

Howso? All that is necessary is that the single arrow do enough damage, and that the four or five arrows not do too much. I think the problem you are describing is actually MORE of a problem with limited hit point systems, like GURPS, or some kind of more abstract system, like True20, where every hit is a chance to fail a saving throw.

If you want PCs to be able to stagger around with an arrow in them and still fight, you are basically looking at some kind of hit point system, or something along the lines of HeroQuest

 

[JRRNeiklot]

I'd wager the black arrow was the inspiration for arrows of slaying which DO kill with one shot. In that respect, D&D models it very well. And Merry was no lowly hobbit, but one of the mightiest hobbit warriors who ever lived - trained by a ranger king and bearing a magical blade of legend. So too did Legolas bear the great bow of Lorien. "To Legolas she gave a bow such as the Galadhrim used. The bow was longer and stouter than the bows of Mirkwood, and it was strung with a string of elf-hair. " This is not a dime store bow, either.