Raven Crowking
First Post
I very much disagree! Overconfident, yes. Old and worn out? Not by a long shot! (Not even by the long shot that brought him down!)
RC
Salvageable Innovations from 4e for Nonenthusiasts
- Thread starter Redbadge
- Start date
I very much disagree! Overconfident, yes. Old and worn out? Not by a long shot! (Not even by the long shot that brought him down!)
RC
Redbadge
Explorer
Do you find exception based design unrealistic, or perhaps gamist? I always thought of it as a way to tell the types of stories me and my player's want without the overall rules constantly getting in the way. Also, I find that it is what makes writing adventures, encounters, and monsters fun. See some of the 4e Living Forgotten Realms adventures for some truly inspired and exciting (IMO) exception-based departures from the rules (fatigue points in Carceri, for example).
Also, as far as 4e NPCs, I wouldn't say they have rules at all, per se. More like baselines and guidelines. I acknowledge that NPCs have different rules than PCs, but I thought that was just so the designers could do things like give high-level Nilbogs 1 AC (to simulate the way the attract and thrive from weapon attacks) or give certain creature the trait that they automatically die on a crit. I'm not sure in which situations PC creation would need these exceptions (though I'm sure it's possible and would make for some interesting storytelling).
Crazy Jerome
First Post
4E put in some support for that idea, in that it made heroes that can really deal out the hurt. But then it consciously moved away from it, in that it removed "save and die". So this whole discussion now has me wondering, in an ivory tower way, what you could do with a 4E design/mechanic in service to an earlier ethos.
Let's start with at-will, encounter, and dailies. But we aren't going to call them that, because they will really just be about dividing up responsibilities in the mechanics. The in-world meaning is moving quite a bit away from 4E:
Normal (At-will) -- stuff everyone can do as part of their class. Fighters swing swords, mages cast magic missile, etc.
Stunts (Encounter) -- stuff you can pull off a few times a fight. You can have some predone ones to pick from, or you can have ad hoc ones, or you can mix. But main thing is that your number of times per fight is limited by given number of stunts at a given power level, not by what you have on hand. (E.g. a mage "stunt" might be casting fireball or dimension door or any number of traditional mid-level spells. But he'd cast more or a 4E model. If he wants to make up a magical stunt to fit the circumstances, he can do that instead. Fighters might have "exploits." But see later.) Heroes do stunts. Normal people do not, at least not in tough situations.
Narrative control (Dailies) -- stuff you can pull off when you've got the plot device handed to you, via any number of means. These things can be tougher than 4E dailies, sometimes even save and die. By definition, they short-circuit the earlier system. Anyone can do this, even a mook, if the story warrants.
You don't subdivide powers, skills, equipment (including magic items), rituals etc. into a given niche, but have all of them in every category. There are normal swords. There are magical swords that can do stunts. And there are swords of prophecy or fate that can exert narrative control. When you hand a hero one of the latter, you have explicitly handed them some narrative control in the game.
And for the final twist, you base all the core math mostly off of the normal level, such that the game can work a lot like, say, Basic D&D, if you have very little of the stunts and narrative portions exercised. Stunts and narrative control run off of independent tracks--dialed by campaign. So, for example, you can not give out stunts much at all, but hand out an arrow of dragon slaying (narrative device) to a normal, and get a certain kind of take on Bard versus Smaug. That is, the stunts and narrative portions are entirely about how much and what kind of control you want the heroes (and villains) to exert via mechanics.
Hope that made some sense.
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Which is a flat-out mistake on his part when taken at face value, but one he was probably forced into.
The Tolkein estate wouldn't allow any of their IP material (Hobbits, etc.) into D+D (hindsight says this was a flat-out mistake on their part, too) and thus EGG sort of had no choice but to officially downplay the Tolkein influence while still keeping it in where he could.
And many players realized this - in the pre-Kender days, how many of us turned Halflings right back into Hobbits?
Lan-"and they're still Hobbits today"-efan
Redbadge
Explorer
4E put in some support for that idea, in that it made heroes that can really deal out the hurt. But then it consciously moved away from it, in that it removed "save and die". So this whole discussion now has me wondering, in an ivory tower way, what you could do with a 4E design/mechanic in service to an earlier ethos.
Let's start with at-will, encounter, and dailies. But we aren't going to call them that, because they will really just be about dividing up responsibilities in the mechanics. The in-world meaning is moving quite a bit away from 4E:
Normal (At-will) -- stuff everyone can do as part of their class. Fighters swing swords, mages cast magic missile, etc.
Stunts (Encounter) -- stuff you can pull off a few times a fight. You can have some predone ones to pick from, or you can have ad hoc ones, or you can mix. But main thing is that your number of times per fight is limited by given number of stunts at a given power level, not by what you have on hand. (E.g. a mage "stunt" might be casting fireball or dimension door or any number of traditional mid-level spells. But he'd cast more or a 4E model. If he wants to make up a magical stunt to fit the circumstances, he can do that instead. Fighters might have "exploits." But see later.) Heroes do stunts. Normal people do not, at least not in tough situations.
Narrative control (Dailies) -- stuff you can pull off when you've got the plot device handed to you, via any number of means. These things can be tougher than 4E dailies, sometimes even save and die. By definition, they short-circuit the earlier system. Anyone can do this, even a mook, if the story warrants.
You don't subdivide powers, skills, equipment (including magic items), rituals etc. into a given niche, but have all of them in every category. There are normal swords. There are magical swords that can do stunts. And there are swords of prophecy or fate that can exert narrative control. When you hand a hero one of the latter, you have explicitly handed them some narrative control in the game.
And for the final twist, you base all the core math mostly off of the normal level, such that the game can work a lot like, say, Basic D&D, if you have very little of the stunts and narrative portions exercised. Stunts and narrative control run off of independent tracks--dialed by campaign. So, for example, you can not give out stunts much at all, but hand out an arrow of dragon slaying (narrative device) to a normal, and get a certain kind of take on Bard versus Smaug. That is, the stunts and narrative portions are entirely about how much and what kind of control you want the heroes (and villains) to exert via mechanics.
Hope that made some sense.
The system you described is a lot like the way my "4e" game is run.
Also, though save-or-die is mostly absent, it can still be found. One of the WotC articles introduced an Arrow of Slaying consumable that is literally save-or-die. Some supported adventures have monsters that can do ridiculous, and unfair, things.
And then there is this, which might be in the hands of the PCs:
World-Rending Axe of Total
Devastation
Level 25+ Rare
Presaged in obscure prophecies and foretold by
blind seers, this axe shatters along its handle
when smashed into the ground, breaking apart
the very world from which it was made.
Lvl 25 +5 625,000 gp
Lvl 30 +6 3,125,000 gp
Weapon: Axe
Enhancement: Attack and damage rolls
Critical: +1d10 damage per plus
Property: You gain a +10 bonus to
Intimidate checks.
Power (Encounter): Standard Action.
Plunge the world-rending axe of total
devastation into the ground, sending
tremors rippling outward from where you
stand. Destroy up to 10 squares of terrain
you can see. These squares do not have to
be contiguous.
Power (Consumable): Standard Action.
Hurl the axe into the ground. At the end of
your next turn, the world you occupy, its
inhabitants, and the axe are utterly
destroyed. You and your allies are
teleported to a random location in the
nearest plane.
This last item comes from Fourthcore Armory: A Compendium of Treasures Mythic & Deadly | Save Versus Death a third-party site called "Fourthcore" whose motto is literally "save versus death."
Some people previously said they liked some of the 4e items. If you like cool items of any kind, you should check out the (free) pdf in the link above. While these are intended for 4e, they could work well for any system with a little reworking.
Some more of my favorites:
The Sword That Shall Not Be
Drawn
Level 2+ Rare
When the forces of creation measured what
would and would not be, this weapon was the
signpost that read ‘you have gone too far.’ Yet it
could not be unmade, and so it has slumbered for
all eternity. A symbol of the gods’ humility and
the wisdom of peace, whoever would defy its
sacred history is surely damned by the heavens.
Lvl 2 +1 520 gp
Lvl 7 +2 2,600 gp
Lvl 12 +3 13,000 gp
Lvl 17 +4 65,000 gp
Lvl 22 +5 325,000 gp
Lvl 27 +6 1,625,000 gp
Implement (Holy Symbol)
Enhancement: Attack and damage rolls
Critical: The target cannot make attacks
until the end of your next turn
Power (At-Will): Minor Action. Draw the
sword that shall not be drawn. Until the end
of the encounter, you may use it as a +7
longsword that deals an extra 1d8 radiant
damage per plus on a hit and an extra
7d12 damage on a critical hit. At the end
of the encounter, you and your allies are
teleported before a council of celestial
justiciars to answer for your crime.
Convincing them to spare your lives is a
complexity 5 skill challenge of your level
(12 successes before 3 failures).
Redeemer
Level 23+ Rare
Carved from a sprig of the world tree and bound
in rings crafted by five different gods, this
mighty quarterstaff has been passed down
through the centuries to preserve existence
against the most ultimate of threats.
Lvl 23 +5 425,000 gp
Lvl 28 +6 2,125,000 gp
Implement (Rod, Staff, or Wand)
Enhancement: Attack and damage rolls
Critical: You or an ally within 10 squares of
you may spend a healing surge or end one
effect that a saving throw can end.
Power (Encounter): Minor Action. End all
effects a save can end on each ally within
10 squares.
Power (Daily): Immediate Interrupt.
Trigger: A world you occupy would be
destroyed. Effect: That world cannot be
destroyed for 24 hours.
Celestial Pocketwatch
Level 14 Uncommon
Two dancing spirits – one radiant, one shadowy
– swirl on the face of this gilded pocketwatch.
When wound, the very planets themselves move.
Wondrous Item 21,000 gp
Property: Gain resist 10 necrotic and
radiant.
Power (Daily): If it is day, it becomes night.
If it is night, it becomes day.
Ring of Arcane Memory
Level 18 Rare
Dozens of small gems line the outside of this
silver ring, each imbued with energy from a
different school of magic.
Item Slot: Ring 85,000 gp
Requirement: You must draw energy from
the Arcane power source. A creature
from any other power source that
willingly puts on the ring of arcane
memory is instantly killed and crumbles
into a pile of residuum equal to the onefifth
the value of a magic item of the
creature’s level.
Property: Gain a +5 bonus to Arcana checks
made as part of casting a ritual.
Power (Healing Surge): Standard Action.
Choose a ritual you have mastered with
Arcana as one of its key skills and a
casting time of one hour or less. You
immediately cast that ritual without spending its
component cost.
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Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
This is actually not true at all.
I'll see if I can find the "proofs" for you on how both of those scenes can be pretty easily replicated - we did it back on the WotC SW boards a few years back.
pawsplay
Hero
I will personally award you a No Prize.
When I went through the Sidious scene, exhaustively, I found there might be a remote chance if you assumed the expenditure of at least two Destiny points by Sidious, conservative estimates of some of the Order's swordmasters (everyone but Mace has to be about level 10 and under), you assumed really good rolls by Sidious, and you completely rewrote Sidious from the book and gave him an entirely different set of feats. I was on the Saga boards, pretty regularly, and I never saw a satisfactory version. I never saw anyone come any closer than I did, although I saw some convincing alternate versions that came as close. I would really like to see one of your "proofs." It would be like seeing cold fusion in action.
Yoda vs. the red guards is somewhat possible if you assume he uses Move Object rather than Force Slam, spends a Destiny point, rolls well, and those red guards have nothing like the published statistics of the Imperial Guard (60+ hit points I think and the ability to act for one round AFTER being taken down by damage due to ET's delay damage ability). I think the scene is literally impossible if you assume the guards have even one level of Elite Trooper.
I suppose the latter is closest to my perspective.
I've always looked at it as having game elements available to NPCs that are not available to PCs. Generally speaking, I want a level design between PC & NPC options, because to do otherwise seems as if the rules DO get in the way of things I want to do as a player or GM.
Patryn of Elvenshae
First Post
?
Well, there's a couple issues I can see with your set-up already. But, like I said, we worked it out on the Saga boards, possibly after you'd given up and left? It was a fun thought exercise.
pawsplay
Hero
Oh, come on. He had a bare spot in his armor. Tolkien might as well have named him Smaug the Comb-Over.
