Sandbox style: How to handle challenge levels

[wedgeski]

You wouldn't believe how many people here absolutely hated that idea here on Enworld.

I would never 'hate' the idea, but the reality of my gaming table is that when PC's start rising in levels, they want to start fighting new, interesting, really deadly and challenging critters. Now that's not to say that a 15th level kobold sorcerer wouldn't be a challenge... but it's still a kobold, and still just a sorcerer. There's (soon to be) five monster manuals worth of beasties to choose from... why pick a kobold?

 

[Imp]

A sense of not making the story about the boring parts should serve you well.

Though changing it up can be good. Not always, but sometimes, it helps in a keep-your-cards-to-your-chest sense if you play out the first few rounds of a goblin-trouncing, until it becomes apparent the fight is a pushover. Will the goblins with ten class levels come out of the crowd this time? Oops guess not.

But then, if say the PCs decide to make a career for a couple of game-years of cleaning out low-level goblin lairs, and that's boring + provides minimal XP, don't play out that part. Play out what happens when somebody or something comes looking for the stream of plunder coming into the PCs pockets. It's not just the PCs' sandbox...

I mean, in a sandbox situation, there are times when I would just want to carve up some low-level threats for some low-level loot: say the wizard needed cash for scrolls or spell components, or we just needed another thousand gp to buy us a ship. I'd be a little annoyed if every time that scenario presented itself the goblins wound up being vampires or the bandits wound up being half-dragons or whatever. But then, the easy score can always go wrong, and not necessarily in an added-CR sense...

 

[Melan]

Beyond a certain level, though, it is sometimes more economic to say "You have mopped the floor with them. Joe, you take ... roll roll ... 3 points of damage. Now, Tom, ..."

And of course, if the PCs can surrender, so can the enemies.

 

[Imp]

Absolutely. But every now and then it also makes sense to have them jumping at shadows. Oh no, he's playing this out, gotta be something scary here... what about that orc in the black spiked armor? BUFF BUFF SPIRITED CHARGE Whoops that was quick.

I've never seen an orc head fly quite that far before.

And then you just roll a few d6s for the rest of the damage sustained and call it a fight.

Next group of orcs, maybe big black armor guy's the real thing.

 

[S'mon]

That's all fine and dandy, but on the other side of the coin do you let the tribe of giants clean the clocks of the 2nd level PCs because they've wandered into the wrong area in the overworld?

1. PCs should have reasonable opportunity to learn 'giants live there'.

2. 2nd level PCs shouldn't expect to roam the world freely; in 1e it was expected PCs would be 7th-10th level before they could go anywhere.

Best approach is to design the world with areas of different EL, start the PCs in a low EL area and let them go where they will, but provide adequate warning of particularly dangerous areas.

If the 10th level PCs attack the bugbear nest, and you want to play it through, it's best not to add 5 class levels to every bugbear. Let the PCs win easily, but rewards will be meagre.

 

[RFisher]

I'm probably not going to say anything that hasn't already been said, but here goes anyway. (^_^)

The DM assigns "threat ratings" to areas. (You could call them "levels".) I'll call it "TR". Generally, the threat rating doesn't spike but only changes a step or two between adjacent areas. (Like adjacent levels of a dungeon.) The TR determines the range of EL that are found therein.

The PCs may hear rumors that give them an idea of an area's TR. "That's the land of the giants!" They can usually assume that the deeper underground, the higher into the heavens, or the deeper into the wilderness they venture can mean an increase in TR. They can't really know until they go there themselves, though.

Plus, events may cause TR to shift so that an area that the PCs once thought of as safe might be so no longer.

In the sandbox game the DM really should go easy on the PCs when it comes to retreating. That's not to say that the PCs shouldn't adequately plan for retreat. But the DM should give them the benefit of the doubt.

The DM may still adjust the encounters slightly for the party. A little fine-tuning just to keep things running smoothly.

Of course, there's room for the occasional anamolies to spice things up a bit.

& when the PCs steal the giant's goose & harp, that giant isn't going to stop persuing them when he get's to a TR boarder. (^_^)

That's how I try to do it.

 

[Delta]

Who here hated the idea of low level monsters with class levels to present a challenge at higher levels? I've always loved the idea of high level hobgoblins and such, and have never seen any opposition to the idea on ENWorld.

Now, if ALL the hobgoblins in the world gained levels to match the PCS, then that would be hokey. But if, at higher levels, you start running into elite, equally high-level hobbos, now that's cool.

...But doing something like that every single time just cheapens it.

I kind of hate it. In particular, I never see it used any way other than "all the hobgoblins in the world gained levels to match the PCs" and "something like that every single time". i.e., any time I see it does in fact look hokey and cheap.

Having elite humanoid troops always show up of exactly the same level as the PCs strikes me, as you say, as cheesy and cheap and gives me a sour taste when playing D&D. What I'd prefer is to sit down at game start and specify who and where the toughest "elite band" of orcs is, make sure there are legends and tales of exactly who they are, and not surprise the players with previously-unheard of bands of goblin superheroes just because it's mechanically easy for the DM to use them.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The PCs may hear rumors that give them an idea of an area's TR. "That's the land of the giants!" They can usually assume that the deeper underground, the higher into the heavens, or the deeper into the wilderness they venture can mean an increase in TR. They can't really know until they go there themselves, though.

Obviously, the easier monsters are found on the plains, tougher monsters in the forests, and the really tough ones live in the mountains and the poisonous swamps.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

When the party in my last game was trekking to a city and moving through a hill region to find something on a map the ranger made a few tracking checks and found a lot of very large footprints that lead off into a small canyon where they found a group of hill giants living. They were 1st-2nd level and were trying to think of a way they could wipe them out. Sure it would have been a quick TPK but they didn't have to attack, they could have noted it and moved past it, maybe come back later. "here they be Giants" as someone said. I wouldn't have felt bad if they had tried to attack and died, they didn't have to attack as I said and they should know better anyway. Its a big scary world out there and you run into stuff you can't handl sometimes.

 

[Stormborn]

I do think that danger level should be communicated to the PCs in a Sandbox style game. Do this both in game and out of game. Out of game tell players: "Just because you can get there and just becuase you meet something doesnt mean you can beat it. Learn other ways of dealing with challanges early. On the otherhand just because you run into a band of kobolds at 10th level don't expect them to be a challange or to get any XP for killing them."

This should encourage players to do a couple of things. First is to plan on a variety of ways to meet challanges. That means those ranks in bluff, diplomacy, and sense motive aren't going to go to waste and enchantment spells are very useful. It encourages them to think creatively and pay attention to the world around them.

In game there should be multiple ways for smart players/PCs to realize that something is going to be to much of a challange, or not enought of one, for them. Let them hear rumors or reports from different areas, make Knowledge (X) checks for them and tell them what their PCs know about a particular thing, or have physical signs that they can observe that allow them to judge the nature of the kinds of threats they will face in an area (a giant foot print, the signs of dragon breat weapons being used, or an obviously kobold made spear left in a looted farm house). You should also make it possible for them to deal with encounters in ways that dont require fighting. Either allow them an opportunity to retreat or make some other plan. IOW don't say "You see a giant, roll iniative." That tells the players that the giant is going to attack them. Maybe he wont. Maybe he is asleep, maybe he is hurt and if the cleric heals him he will go away and leave the village alone, maybe he is looking for soemthing and the PCs can get it for him, etc. Give them the opportunity to deal with higher EL events in creative ways. The same applies for those challanges that are too easy. Personally I think that its good for PCs to occasionally wipe the floor with an opponent. Show they are the powerful butt-kicking heroes they want to be. But repeatatvie encounters would get dull quickly. Handwave them, and dont give out XP or significant loot, or make them an opportunity for something else to happen. Maybe the band of kobolds have a sorcerer who can detect magic at will. He sees the PCs and realizes that his clan is outmatched - they surrender to the great and powerful ones and beg them to spare their lives. They agree to give them all their treasure, which just happens to have been stolen from them by an evil Troll Blackguard. Or they start worshipping the sorcerer PC and become equal parts help and hinderance as they go into town shouting that all should bow low before the dragonblooded god that walks the earth.

Don't change the CR of things just becuase the PCs level up, or at least don't do it always. The bandit king that would have been an appropriate 3rd level encounter is going to be gaining levels of his own if the PCs don't deal with him - it makes sense in game because in a way he is an adventurer too. Having an isolated band of goblins doing that doesnt. Do give the players a chance to have a creative and fun encounter whereevr they go. Don't be afraid to kill PCs when they do something stupid. Do warn them off, in game and out of game, when they are wasting their time in the valley of the 1st level commoner kobolds.