SAS D20 -- A disappointed view

[Vigilance]

I also disagree with the sentiment that "feats are not core d20". If more publishers will be diverging from the d20 system in that way, they can expect to not get my business.

Feats are my personal *favorite* thing about d20. And any product that doesnt have them, is not a product I am going to enjoy or use.

Feats do a lot of very good things to the game, chief of which is to allow characters access to a wide range of abilities that lessen the stereotyping of class, since characters of all classes can take any given feat if they meet the prerequisites.

I personally find feats "core" to d20, and find it a little troubling that you just dismissed Lizard's complaint of there being no feats with "its not core to the system, lots of folks will do it in the future"

 

[javadragon]

M&M is in a lot of trouble

I happen to like what I've seen on M&M (Mutants & Masterminds), but from the comments in this thread I'm afraid it'll fail. It looks like GOO stayed way truer to the "D20" mentality (notice I didn't say system) then Green Ronin has.

However I think this discussion explains something, which has been bothering me. I'm apparently the only one who was less than satisfied with 4CTF (I didn't hate it so don't flame). The problem for me was that they made "D&D in tights" (for lack of a better expression) by being more worried about staying true to D&D (not D20). To me it just doesn't feel like a supers game. It seems that most people would rather keep the "D&D" feel at the cost of a "supers" feel. I can only see two possible reasons for this:
1) They want their players to be able to play without learning anything new. I.E. It's easier to teach
2) They want to be able to borrow from other mainstream "D&D"ish material.

These are both good reasons, but for me it will always come down to feel. The most important thing to me is that it feels like I'm playing a superhero game. And this probably explains why I went with SAS Tri-Stat. But it was a really close call with M&M.

 

[Vigilance]

In my opinion, it is possible to stay true to d20 AND have a comic book feel.

I think M&M missed the mark my eliminating classes, levels, and hit points (from what Ive heard). I also think SAS made a mistake by eliminating feats from the game.

I think, although they are often decried, that these things are the REASON d20 is so popular.

I think players LIKE to have a class, because when you make a character, you have no idea what that person is going to be LIKE (imaginary though he is), but you DO know what kind of character you like to play. I also think classes fit very nicely with the comicas genre, as long as they arent too restrictive. Cyclops is an energy blaster, the Thing is a Brick. Most comics characters fall pretty neatly into a *broad* category, and even those that don't, you have multiclassing and Prestige Classes to cover you.

Levels come often enough to keep players interested, and always provide a healthy enough "jolt" of power to be noticed. Both of these are VERY good things in terms of the game.

Some people have said that comic book characters dont level. Really?

Marvel Girl, who is now Phoenix (just Jean Grey), could only lift telekinetically what she could lift PHYSICALLY in X-men #1. Even if you discount Phoenix as a plot device, she now can lift tanks and cars with ease, and has telepathic powers as well.

Cyclops could make one broad beam in X-men #1, and he had to reach up and manually open his visor to do it (say a full round action). Now, he can fire at full auto, and catch multiple targets with ricochets. He has also grown into a great hand to hand fighter, and a fantastic leader.

The Invisible Girl could only become invisible. Now, she can turn others invisible, levitate (through force pillars), make forcefields, and throw force bolts (evergy blast).

I could go on and on. Comic characters obviously level. Look at the Spider Man who had trouble with Fancy Dan in the first five issues, and the Spider Man who beat Juggernaut.

DO I hear dice being rolled as a character levels? I think I do.

I dont think anyone is advocating getting rid of the four color feel. I think what I am saying is, if you're going to make a d20 game, make a d20 game. If you want to make a point based game without races, classes levels, hit points, and feats, thats cool, I liked Champions.

Just dont tell me its a d20 game.

I personally think all these things fit the comics genre. But if I was designing a supers game and I couldnt work them in, I would make a system of my own, and not try to shoehorn d20 in, to increase sales.

 

[hong]

Levels come often enough to keep players interested, and always provide a healthy enough "jolt" of power to be noticed. Both of these are VERY good things in terms of the game.

Some people have said that comic book characters dont level. Really?

(snip examples)

The argument could be made that it works in the opposite direction too. Superman, for instance, seems to have suffered some pretty bad energy drain effects since the 1930s.

 

[Vigilance]

True, but as someone has already mentioned, he also has gained some pretty significant ones.

He used to literally leap tall bulldings because he couldnt fly.

 

[Lizard]

Re: Re: SAS D20 -- A disappointed view

As for SAS d20:
I still intend to look at SAS d20, but have you tried taking the game for a test drive and see how it plays?


FD

No. I'm much more likely to use the Tri-Stat version in actual play.

I know Tri-Stat, and I know core D20. Why learn what is, in essence, a third system? (Well, other than the fact I like learning new systems and have played dozens, but...) Variant rules (D20 Modern, Spycraft) are fine, but so much is changed or abandoned by D20 SAS that I think I'd be better off sticking to the original rules, since most of the D20 SAS rules simply try to emulate the original as much as possible.

 

[Furn_Darkside]

The argument could be made that it works in the opposite direction too. Superman, for instance, seems to have suffered some pretty bad energy drain effects since the 1930s.

I am just trying to stay away from the argument

If people can't understand there is little if any consistancy in character's powers (or anything) with changes of writers, then why bother?

I mean, look, someone used Cosmic Spiderman as an example of him gaining a level?



The comic book community was one of the biggest reasons I gave up reading them. heh.

FD

 

[Lizard]

Re: M&M is in a lot of trouble

I happen to like what I've seen on M&M (Mutants & Masterminds), but from the comments in this thread I'm afraid it'll fail. It looks like GOO stayed way truer to the "D20" mentality (notice I didn't say system) then Green Ronin has.

Well, I'm still looking forward to it. I'm aware it changes a lot, but, to the best of my understanding, the changes were made 'from te ground up'. The main issue I have with SAS D20 is not that it deviates from the Wholly Writ, per se, but that it did so for purposes of compatibility with another system, or so it appears. Someone else mentioned CoC. This game mandated a lot of changes to 'core' D20 concepts -- no classes, for one thing, and virtually any attack can kill. But the majority of the playerbase said "Wow! Cool beans!" not "I wanted D&D with tentacles. This sucks." Their focus was not 'comaptibility with the mechancs of CoC' but 'compatibility with the SPIRIT of CoC' -- and that made all the difference.

 

[javadragon]

D20 done right?

Even though I'm getting SAS tri-stat (will be here tomorrow) I'm also planning to fully support DNW. In my opinion it does the best job of keeping the D&D D20 style while emulating the supers genre. I'm keeping it simply because it is a great way to introduce D&D players to supers. And it will be great for one-shots and mini-campaigns.

 

[batman8405]

Might I humbly suggest taking a look at Deeds Not Words? If you're looking for a firmly planted d20 system that is able to provide you with virtually ANY type of hero you want, it's worth a gander. I DL'ed it a few weeks ago and have been able to easily pick up the mechanics (my group is currently playing Star Wars d20) in no time. With just a little work I was even able to convert player-created Classic Marvel Superheroes (not the SAGA crap) characters to d20. It's a solid set of mechanics with more customization options than I've seen so far from any other system. Oh, and it only costs 10 bucks.