Savage Species - 1 HD ECLs (error ? )

[Darkness]

Savage Species mentions no such restriction.

*nods* Good thing, too, if you want to play an aasimar, drow, tiefling, etc.

 

[Caliban]

Disclaimer: I don't own Savage Species.

However: the MM kobolds dont have "half a hit die". The reason they have d4 HD is that the default kobold is not a warrior (cf the default orc or hobgoblin) but a commoner (so has 1 HD, it's just a d4.) If you look at skills and saves etc it all works correctly.

The kobold is not a commoner, it's a non-classed humanoid. The skill points and saves do not add up correctly for a commoner:

1) The MM doesn't list it as a d4 HD creature, it lists it as a 1/2 D8 HD.
2) The saves don't work correctly if it's a commoner. The kobold has a +2 will save and a 10 Wis. Commoners don't get a bonus on any save at 1st level, while Humanoids get one good save (Will, Reflex, or Fortitude). For kobolds it's Will.
3) Commoners have 8 skill points at 1st level, Humanoids have 6. Kobolds have 6 skill points:

Kobold skill breakdown:

Craft (trapmaking): +2 (Racial bonus: +2 on trapmaking)
Hide +8 (Size bonus: +4, Dex bonus +1, 3 skill points)
Listen +2 (Alertness feat)
Move Silently +4 (Dex bonus +1, 3 skill points)
Search +2 (Racial bonus: +2 on Search)
Spot +2 (Alertness)
---------------------------
6 skill points spent.

 

[Caliban]

Everyone? I haven't seen anyone point that out.

Sorry, bad wording on my part. I believe that is the gist of what a few others have been trying to say, it's just not exactly how they have been saying it.

Anyway, if I do use this optional rule, what are class skills for a 1-HD elf with no classes? Shouldn't they fill us in on that part of their optional rule?

No more so than they do for any other Humanoid. Each different type of humanoid (or other monster) has a few different skills as class skills (kobolds have Move Silently and Hide, lizard folk have Jump and Swim). (It's debatable whether or not skills they don't actually put skill points into are considered class skills, even if they are mentioned in the statistic block.)

They didn't preselect them for the standard races because it would be pretty rare that you would actually do this with a standard race. By default all 1HD races advance as a class and don't start off with a level of "Humanoid". They just mentioned it as an option. Mainly as a side effect of the new system they created for calculating Level Adjustment and ECL's.

Kobolds can either be a standard 1/2 HD kobold, or a take a class and replace that 1/2 HD (and skills) with the class level HD, or they can keep the kobold monster level (and starting skill points) and then add a class level on top of it.

The first case is a standard kobold, the second case is a kobold who received special training (or was raised in a different society) and never learned the standard kobold skillset, and the third case represents a standard kobold who actually survives a few encounters with adventurers and then picks up a class level.

99% of the time a standard race will just gain a regular class level rather than get the humanoid skills. But what if you have a human who is raised by kobolds? He might start off as a 1HD humanoid with the kobold skillset (but without their racial bonuses).

Obviously, we are not going to get any further with this. I think you are splitting hairs and they have created a completely unneeded complication.

It is a more complicated method than the default mentioned in the DMG, but it's purpose is to show you how they got their numbers, and it is what they use to create the "Monster Classes" at the back of the book.

They are trying to give you the tools they used, and explain how to use them, so that you can create your own monster classes.

You may not like the system they came up with, but that's why it's a rules supplement and not a core rulebook. You don't have to use any part of it you don't like.

I also think that if you are going to shift over to rules replacement from rules supplement, it is worth at least clearly stating that you have done so.

They aren't replacing any rules. They are giving you a new option on handling 1HD creatures. It's a rules variant, just like the ones they mention in the DMG. If it offends your sensibilities, you don't have to use it.

The entire book is about new rules and options for monsters and characters. That's kind of the point.

 

[BryonD]

OK. I admit that the ECL in SS work fine for those pretty rare cases where someone wants to use a more complicated system without any guidance for class skills.

I'll simply claim that they could have given me the exact same tools by saying that 1HD races loss that HD when they gain a class, so they are all listed as zero HD in the tables.

You fabrication of a human with a kobold skill set scenario does nothing to support SS. If they intended somthing like this couldn't they simply add one little sentence saying that you need to come up with the skill list based on some rational?

And your option actually contradicts Table 2-2. Table 2-2 has a column for "Skill Points of Base Creature" For all cases with more than 1 HD this column agrees with Table 2-1. But for the 1 HD cases they all say "as class". So they ONLY get class skill points. Even if you point to the 1 Hit Die Creatures sidebar, Table 2-2 still contradicts itself because the Starting ECL column assumes that you keep the HD and the Skill Points of Base Creature column assumes you dump it. So there is still errata needed.

 

[BryonD]

If it offends your sensibilities, you don't have to use it.

????

What is the point of this statement?

My entire case hase been that there are mechanical errors.

Please don't try to assign emotional assumptions to my analysis.

The entire book is about new rules and options for monsters and characters. That's kind of the point.

When did I dispute this?
The new rules have logical flaws in them. This is worthy of discussion.
If they want to modify the core rules in addition to ading on to them, that is worthy of more clarification, IMHO.

 

[Knight Otu]

There seem to be two more examples of 1 HD humanoids that are not warriors. Seemingly they have 1 humanoid Hit Die.

PsiHB: The blue goblinoid
Monsters of Faerun: the gibberling

 

[Caliban]

????

What is the point of this statement?

My entire case hase been that there are mechanical errors.

Please don't try to assign emotional assumptions to my analysis.

Then don't get so emotional about it.

It just seems that you are making a big deal out of something that is pretty minor.

When did I dispute this?
The new rules have logical flaws in them. This is worthy of discussion.

It's not a logical flaw, you just aren't looking at it the way they are.

The ECL columon on table 2-2 is the Starting ECL, not the ECL. Its their effective character level when you start playing them.

The standard ECL is equal to "Monster HD" + "Level Adjustment" + "Class Levels".

Table 2-2 isn't using the standard ECL, it's using Starting ECL, which doesn't take into account class levels.

The 1 in the HD column simply reflects the 1HD every creature starts with. A 1 HD creature will either have it's "monster class" HD or a "character class" HD when it starts play. The standard 1HD humanoids from the MM, and the standard races, all start with their character class HD instead of the "monster class" HD.

When the elf starts play, it will have 1HD from it's class, and a level of justment of +0, so it has a STARTING ECL of 1.

A 1st level elf has a Effective Character Level of 1, just as table 2-2 shows. It's just that the "monster HD" is usually replaced by their "class HD" when they actually start play.

This is supported by the sidebar on page 13, not contradicted by it as you stated. Read the very first line of the sidebar. And the last part of the sidebar, where it mentions keeping the "monster HD" also states that if you do this, you get the humanoid starting skill points, not the class level starting skill points. Table 2-2 assumes that you are going to be replacing the monster HD with the class level when you actually start play, which is why it lists the skill points "as class".

The option for keeping the "monster HD" is really only useful for monsters with fractional HD, like kobolds. They have a starting skillset that isn't based on a class. Full 1HD monsters are always assumed to have a character class of some sort in the core rules, so there's no starting skillset for "non-classed 1HD humanoids".

If they want to modify the core rules in addition to ading on to them, that is worthy of more clarification, IMHO.

The core rules are still there, unmodified. This is just a different way of presenting them, along with an option for doing things differently. I do agree that their presentation seems counter-intuitive at first.

 

[BryonD]

OK, Now you are agreeing with my original point.

Quite simply, Table 2-2 is inconsitent between 1 HD monsters and others.

For >1 HD monsters level = starting ECL+class levels.
For 1HD monsters level = starting ECL + class levels -1.

Please quote a reference that states that every monster starts with 1 hit dice.

I think this is the crux of your error:

When the elf starts play, it will have 1HD from it's class, and a level of justment of +0, so it has a STARTING ECL of 1.

Class levels are not included in the STARTING ECL.

A <monster> Fighter 1 has an ECL = 1 + STARTING ECL.

If <monster> = bugbear then STARTING ECL = 4 and ECL = 5.
If <monster> = elf then we know that ECL = 1 so we know that STARTING ECL must equal 0.

If I tell you I want to make a Fighter 1 character for your game and that on Table 2-2 the Starting ECL for the race I have chosen is 3, what is the overall level of my character?

This statement is also incorrect:

The ECL columon on table 2-2 is the Starting ECL, not the ECL. Its their effective character level when you start playing them.

Starting ECL is the ECL of the creature when your start designing a character. Look at the Bugbear example on page 24. The Starting ECL of a bugbear is 4. You could start play as a classless bugbear with an ECL of level 4. But if you add a class, as is typically assumed, and as is assumed in the example, the ECL when you start playing them is 5 (Starting ECL +1).

 

[BryonD]

This is supported by the sidebar on page 13, not contradicted by it as you stated. Read the very first line of the sidebar.

I have. It clearly states that a 1 HD creature losses its HD when it gains a class. Now, if we stay with that option for the moment, Table 2-2 is wrong when it says that the elf has 1 HD. Thus the Starting ECL on Table 2-2 is also wrong. The Skill Points of Base Creature column is now correct however.

BUT....

The last paragraph save the day right?
It says that you may choose to keep the die.
OK, while I may think this is a bad idea, I have no problem with them saying, "here is a new rule." But let's say that we do that. Now the Skill Points of Starting Creature are wrong and the HD column is right.

For High Elf table 2-2 states that the (racial) Hit Dice = 1 and the Skill Points of Base Creature is "As Class". There is no case where both of these statements are true.


Reference your own example. In order to make the 1 HD column be correct, you were forced to use "as kobold", not "as class". Thus, your example does not agree with Table 2-2.

 

[Caliban]

I have. It clearly states that a 1 HD creature losses its HD when it gains a class. Now, if we stay with that option for the moment, Table 2-2 is wrong when it says that the elf has 1 HD. Thus the Starting ECL on Table 2-2 is also wrong. The Skill Points of Base Creature column is now correct however.

BUT....

The last paragraph save the day right?
It says that you may choose to keep the die.
OK, while I may think this is a bad idea, I have no problem with them saying, "here is a new rule." But let's say that we do that. Now the Skill Points of Starting Creature are wrong and the HD column is right.

For High Elf table 2-2 states that the (racial) Hit Dice = 1 and the Skill Points of Base Creature is "As Class". There is no case where both of these statements are true.


Reference your own example. In order to make the 1 HD column be correct, you were forced to use "as kobold", not "as class". Thus, your example does not agree with Table 2-2.

You really are making this a lot harder than it needs to be.

The table assumes that you will be giving up the 1HD for your class level when you actually create the character, as explained in the first paragraph of the sidebar.

If you use the option to keep the HD, then you don't use the starting class skill points, as explained in the last paragraph of the sidebar.