[Savage Species]Half-ogre overpowered??
- Thread starter zdanboy
- Start date
Shard O'Glase
First Post
Hardhead said:
The ogre gets a 10' reach using a dagger, his bare hands, or any other weapon. He gets the 10' reach because he's tall and therefore has long arms. He does not have to use any special equipment to gain reach.
BLACKDIRGE
Adventurer
Here is a good comparison fro those who think the half-ogre should be ECL 2. Lets compare our half ogre to a race that is already accepted as ECL 2, the drow.
Hit dice
drow- 1
Half-ogre- 1
Stat Bonuses
Drow- net +4
Half-Ogre- net +2
Drow gets the edge here
Skill Bonuses
Drow- +2 to spot, listen and search
Half-ogre - none
drow gets the edge here as well
Special Abilities
Drow- darkvision 120ft, spell resistance, +2 saves vs spells, spell-like abilities, immune to sleep, +2 saves vs enchantment
Half-ogre- lagre size (reach 10 ft, can carry more) +4 natural armor, darkvision 30ft
looks like the drow wins again
Drawbacks
Drow- light blindness, known to be evil
Half-Ogre- large size (-1 AC, -1 to hit, more expensive equipment), not accepted in civilized areas
Half-ogre has a slight edge here
Versatility
drow- there is virtually no class that a drow would not do well in
half-ogre- fighter and barbarian are the only real choices that the half-ogres stat minuses would not be a detriment.
drow a clear winner her
Now I think its pretty clear that a drow elf is a superior race in almost every way and if they are ECL 2, then a half-ogre should be ECL 1.
I think a lot of people in this thread are only looking at one aspect of the ECL, that a half-ogre is good in combat. I don't think an ECL can be figured that way, it has to take in the whole picture. Simply put a half-ogre has virtually no versatility and in a game like D&D that is a very important aspect.
Dirge
Hit dice
drow- 1
Half-ogre- 1
Stat Bonuses
Drow- net +4
Half-Ogre- net +2
Drow gets the edge here
Skill Bonuses
Drow- +2 to spot, listen and search
Half-ogre - none
drow gets the edge here as well
Special Abilities
Drow- darkvision 120ft, spell resistance, +2 saves vs spells, spell-like abilities, immune to sleep, +2 saves vs enchantment
Half-ogre- lagre size (reach 10 ft, can carry more) +4 natural armor, darkvision 30ft
looks like the drow wins again
Drawbacks
Drow- light blindness, known to be evil
Half-Ogre- large size (-1 AC, -1 to hit, more expensive equipment), not accepted in civilized areas
Half-ogre has a slight edge here
Versatility
drow- there is virtually no class that a drow would not do well in
half-ogre- fighter and barbarian are the only real choices that the half-ogres stat minuses would not be a detriment.
drow a clear winner her
Now I think its pretty clear that a drow elf is a superior race in almost every way and if they are ECL 2, then a half-ogre should be ECL 1.
I think a lot of people in this thread are only looking at one aspect of the ECL, that a half-ogre is good in combat. I don't think an ECL can be figured that way, it has to take in the whole picture. Simply put a half-ogre has virtually no versatility and in a game like D&D that is a very important aspect.
Dirge
Victim
First Post
Now compare a half orc to an elf and you have almost the exact same comparision. But the ability to dominate in straight up fights is big advantage. It applies at every level.
Of course, I'd say that the critical loss of spellcasting levels for some characters, and the penalty to CON reduce the versatility of Dark Elves. At least a Half Ogre is good at something.
You also ignore the Half Ogre's immunity to person affecting spells.
Versatility really only matters on the team level. A fighter or Barbarian will be pretty useless outside combat in most cases even as a human. You can't really make the case that a half ogre is less versatile than a half orc.
What about ordinary orcs? They are LA +1 and have +4 STR, -2 INT, WIS, and CHA, Darkvision, no feats, and Light Sensitivity. How can a half ogre be on par with them?
Of course, I'd say that the critical loss of spellcasting levels for some characters, and the penalty to CON reduce the versatility of Dark Elves. At least a Half Ogre is good at something.
You also ignore the Half Ogre's immunity to person affecting spells.
Versatility really only matters on the team level. A fighter or Barbarian will be pretty useless outside combat in most cases even as a human. You can't really make the case that a half ogre is less versatile than a half orc.
What about ordinary orcs? They are LA +1 and have +4 STR, -2 INT, WIS, and CHA, Darkvision, no feats, and Light Sensitivity. How can a half ogre be on par with them?
BLACKDIRGE
Adventurer
Victim said:
You're right I forgot about the immunity to certain spells, but i still don't think it makes the Half-ogre equal to a drow. Depending on the style of your game versatility is very important. I am DMing a party right now that has taken serious losses because all they can do is fight.
As to half-orcs, i really think they got a raw deal, but that's another thread.
Orcs are actually LA +0, and as such are indeed inferior to half-ogres.
Victim
First Post
The PARTY has taken serious losses because all they can do is fight. That sounds so familiar - my 3e group will only play brute characters.
However, group versatility doesn't mean that all members of the group have a broad range of skills. The group can be versatile if everyone specializes in something different. The group of a fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric will probably do better in most situations than a group of 4 bards.
I didn't read through Savage Species all that carefully at the store. I thought that one dragon magizine had orcs at +1. Did they change back to zero?
However, group versatility doesn't mean that all members of the group have a broad range of skills. The group can be versatile if everyone specializes in something different. The group of a fighter, rogue, wizard, and cleric will probably do better in most situations than a group of 4 bards.
I didn't read through Savage Species all that carefully at the store. I thought that one dragon magizine had orcs at +1. Did they change back to zero?
BLACKDIRGE
Adventurer
Victim said:
Yeah, it's pretty hilarious. They are trying to finesse their way into a drow city and no one in the party has a charisma higher than 10.
Yes they did put orcs back to LA +0, which means half orcs should be LA -1.
As to what Half-ogres ECL should be, I think I am going to play it by ear and allow them at ECL +1 and so how it plays out. I may make up an NPC half-ogre and see how he does with my current party one level behind before I make my final decision.
Dirge
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
BLACKDIRGE said:
I'm not so sure. Drow have a penalty in everybody's second most important stat--con. Half-ogres have a bonus there.
Half ogres also concentrate their bonus in a very useful stat--strength. Especially in point buy systems, there's an argument to be made that +4 in one stat is more valuable than +2 in three stats.
I'm not sure. Spell Resistance is very powerful but reach and large size are too. (Note that large size also makes trip, bull rush, and disarm attacks more effective for the half-ogre).
I don't think that drow are as versatile as you seem to think. With an ECL of 2 and a con penalty they have a lot of disadvantages to overcome as wizards or sorcerors. The con penalty isn't as big a deal for clerics but it's still significant and the ECL really hurts.
The drow's con penalty also really hurts at low levels when ECL means dramatically fewer hit points as well. At least the half-ogre has a con bonus and natural armor that can help offset the hit point deficit.
If you ask me, I'd say that the drow makes a good melee, archer, or rogue type from mid to high levels and can make a competent--although not tremendous spellcaster.
The half-ogre makes a good melee type from day one but doesn't make a really good rogue or archer although competence in those fields is possible. And half-ogres would really have to struggle to even be competent as spellcasters.
I think the drow still wins but it's not as clear cut as you seem to think.
It might be possible to make exactly the same argument for PH elves against orc (or humans against half-orcs for that matter) but I don't think it's valid. IMO, they're both at least ECL 2. One may be better than the other but that doesn't mean they're not the same ECL.
I think that the half-ogre has more versatility than you give it credit for and that you're also over-rating versatility as a balance factor.
A player race with +10 strength, -4 dex, +6 con, -4 int, -4 wis, -4 cha, large size and +6 natural armor would have no versatility at all. That wouldn't make it balanced.
BLACKDIRGE
Adventurer
Elder-Basilisk said:
You make some good points but the conclusion that I have come to is that none of us will really be able to judge the half-ogre fairly until we see it in actual play. Something I shall endeavor to do.
Dirge
