[Savage Species]Half-ogre overpowered??
- Thread starter zdanboy
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Storminator
First Post
Hardhead said:
Looking at the anthromorphic animals, table on page 216. Anthromophic bats are ECL 1, no LA. But some of the other AAs are LA 1, and nowhere near as good as the H/O.
PS
Guilt Puppy
First Post
Victim said:
Does magical armor resize to fit the wearer? I was under the impression that only rings/wondrous items did that... I don't have my DMG on hand, though, so I could be wrong.
Anyway, if anything this thread has convinced me that Half-Ogres at ECL +1 are OK. A little too powerful, but ECL +2 would be a little weak... Considering all their non-tank penalties, they really should out-tank a Human fighter, although by just a little. The missing HD, cost of armor, and ESPECIALLY the missing feats get in the way of this. They're still a little better at tanking, but they really have zero versatility.
The point-buy example, however, is an interesting one: You're basically allowed to move your racial bonuses around, although at varied costs, which seems odd. Really, just as applicable with organic stats... You can, for instance, use Strength as a dump stat and still be able to carry plenty and defend yourself in melee. The system makes sense, but still it's a little curious what can happen with it.
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
And I think you made a mistake in doing this because the simplicity is avoiding making proper use of the ogre's feats. A huge Heavy Flail, Guisarm, or Spiked Chain combined with combat reflexes and/or Large and In Charge would make proper use of the half ogre's reach.
If Thumpy, the half ogre Ftr 4 is done as follows:
Str 22
Dex 13 (+1 4th level)
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 8
Feats: Weapon Focus: Guisarm, Weapon Specialization Guisarm, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Cleave
he will be much more likely to cleave Doofus in twain. If he gets to be optimized for one on one encounters, his feats can be:
Weapon Focus: Guisarm, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Reflexes.
Give him spiked armor and he's nullified all of Doofus's advantages from iterative attacks (which bias this comparison decidedly towards Doofus--a similar comparison made at with a level 6 Thumpy and level 8 Doofus will be very lopsidedly in Thumpy's advantage; even with a level 9 Thumpy and a level 11 Doofus (picking the next iterative attack breakpoint), Doofus won't have the same advantage he has at level 6).
In any event, one on one is not necessarily where Thumpy will shine. Taking the level 8 Thumpy from my initial build and making him Ftr 6, he can have Great Cleave and a slightly higher dex. Which means that, he will be able to clear entire rooms of weaker bad guys in a single full round attack--or even on a single attack of opportunity. Doofus will never be able to do that (without getting Supreme Cleave--and even that won't work on AoOs).
Similarly, the party is likely to find that, while Doofus has to ready an action in order to stop archers and spellcasters from 5' stepping away from him, all Thumpy has to do is get within 15 feet of them.
Essentially by ignoring the tactical opportunities afforded by reach, you are missing out a large portion of why Thumpy has an ECL.
If you ask me, the demonstration provided shows that, in a worst case scenario, the half-ogre is as good as a character two levels higher. Adding in the tactical advantages of reach, I would say that the half ogre is a very powerful creature at ECL 2 and wouldn't be out of place at ECL 3.
If Thumpy, the half ogre Ftr 4 is done as follows:
Str 22
Dex 13 (+1 4th level)
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 8
Feats: Weapon Focus: Guisarm, Weapon Specialization Guisarm, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Cleave
he will be much more likely to cleave Doofus in twain. If he gets to be optimized for one on one encounters, his feats can be:
Weapon Focus: Guisarm, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Reflexes.
Give him spiked armor and he's nullified all of Doofus's advantages from iterative attacks (which bias this comparison decidedly towards Doofus--a similar comparison made at with a level 6 Thumpy and level 8 Doofus will be very lopsidedly in Thumpy's advantage; even with a level 9 Thumpy and a level 11 Doofus (picking the next iterative attack breakpoint), Doofus won't have the same advantage he has at level 6).
In any event, one on one is not necessarily where Thumpy will shine. Taking the level 8 Thumpy from my initial build and making him Ftr 6, he can have Great Cleave and a slightly higher dex. Which means that, he will be able to clear entire rooms of weaker bad guys in a single full round attack--or even on a single attack of opportunity. Doofus will never be able to do that (without getting Supreme Cleave--and even that won't work on AoOs).
Similarly, the party is likely to find that, while Doofus has to ready an action in order to stop archers and spellcasters from 5' stepping away from him, all Thumpy has to do is get within 15 feet of them.
Essentially by ignoring the tactical opportunities afforded by reach, you are missing out a large portion of why Thumpy has an ECL.
If you ask me, the demonstration provided shows that, in a worst case scenario, the half-ogre is as good as a character two levels higher. Adding in the tactical advantages of reach, I would say that the half ogre is a very powerful creature at ECL 2 and wouldn't be out of place at ECL 3.
Storminator said:
Dash Dannigan
First Post
I agree that the half-ogre template is a very high-end +1 ECL and a low-end +2 ECL. As a result it looks like our game group will be going with a slightly adjusted half-ogre template. Quite likely reducing the str bonus to +4 and the natural armor bonus to +2, and leaving the template at +1 ECL.
Victim
First Post
DMG 176. Clothing, jewerly and armor resize.
At higher levels, the loss of HD, extra costs for magic armor, and loss of feats lose significance.
If, at level 6, things are about even in combat between a LA +2 Half Ogre and human fighter, then what about at level 10? Or 15?The penalties from the race lose signficance over time.
For example, at level 10:
Item selections: (49k)
+2 weapon (8)
+3 Full Plate (10)
+3 Shield (9)
+3 Cloak of Resistance (9)
Amulet of Health +2 (4)
Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2 (4)
5000 gp for spending money, gear, non combat items, potions
This isn't exactly an optimal equipment selection, but both characters will generally have the same equipment. The only item that the Half Ogre can't use that the human could is an Amulet of Natural Armor.
Stats before items and racial adjustments:
STR 15
DEX 13
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 8
A simple standard array.
Level 10 human fighter:
STR 18
DEX 13
CON 17
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 8
Spd: 20
Ini: +5
Att: +10/+5
+17/+12
Dmg: 1d10+8 17-20x2
AC: 27
HP: 10d10+30 (Max: 130, LG: 94)
F: +13
R: +7
W: +9
Feats: 11: Exotic Weapon, Focus, Specialization, Imp Crit: Bastard sword, Dodge, Iron Will, Power Attack, Cleave, Imp. Initiative, Blindfight, Mobility
39 skillpoints, but from the largely worthless fighter list.
------------------------------------------
Half Ogre Fighter 8
STR 24
DEX 11
CON 19
INT 8
WIS 12
CHA 6
SPd 20
INI +4
Att: +8/+3
+17/+12 (+8 base, +7 STR, +2 weapon, +1 feat, -1 size)
Dmg: 2d6+11 17-20x2
AC: 29 (+11 armor, +5 shield, +4 natural, -1 size)
HP: 8d10+36 (Max: 116, LG: 88)
F: +13
R: +5
W: +6
Feats: 8: Focus, Specialization, Imp Crit: Greatsword, Iron Will, Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Blindfight
8 Skillpoints
---------------------------------------------
Normal combat, starting from 5ft away:
Human +17/+12 - needs a 12 and 17 to hit
Ogre +17/+12 - needs a 11 and 16 to hit, counting dodge
Using Max HP and discounting crits:
The human needs about 8.5 hits to drop the ogre.
The ogre needs about 7.2 hits to drop the human.
Using Living Greyhawk HP:
The human needs about 6.5 hits to drop the ogre.
The ogre needs about 5.2 hits to drop the human.
Gee, and the ogre hits more often too. Crits would speed up and randomize the process, but since both guys have the same crit range, wouldn't alter the average outcome.
Comparing Grapple checks, the human has +14, and the half ogre has +19. The difference here is rather considerable.
The human has the advantage on saves, but only by a little. The half ogres immunity to person affecting spells should provide a counterbalance for the weaker will save.
The main drawback is the extreme lack of skill points for the Half Ogre. Of course, if we use a Half Orc instead of human base character, the Half Ogre is only short 2 skill points and still has significant combat advantages.
And then there's reach.
If, at +2 LA, the Half Ogre has advantages over the Half Orc in pure combat ability, then at +1 LA, there's clearly something wrong. Half Orcs are the core race for pure butt-kicking, monster slaying action. Half Ogres shouldn't be able to out damage them and have reach too.
At higher levels, the loss of HD, extra costs for magic armor, and loss of feats lose significance.
If, at level 6, things are about even in combat between a LA +2 Half Ogre and human fighter, then what about at level 10? Or 15?The penalties from the race lose signficance over time.
For example, at level 10:
Item selections: (49k)
+2 weapon (8)
+3 Full Plate (10)
+3 Shield (9)
+3 Cloak of Resistance (9)
Amulet of Health +2 (4)
Gauntlets of Ogre Power +2 (4)
5000 gp for spending money, gear, non combat items, potions
This isn't exactly an optimal equipment selection, but both characters will generally have the same equipment. The only item that the Half Ogre can't use that the human could is an Amulet of Natural Armor.
Stats before items and racial adjustments:
STR 15
DEX 13
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 8
A simple standard array.
Level 10 human fighter:
STR 18
DEX 13
CON 17
INT 10
WIS 12
CHA 8
Spd: 20
Ini: +5
Att: +10/+5
+17/+12
Dmg: 1d10+8 17-20x2
AC: 27
HP: 10d10+30 (Max: 130, LG: 94)
F: +13
R: +7
W: +9
Feats: 11: Exotic Weapon, Focus, Specialization, Imp Crit: Bastard sword, Dodge, Iron Will, Power Attack, Cleave, Imp. Initiative, Blindfight, Mobility
39 skillpoints, but from the largely worthless fighter list.
------------------------------------------
Half Ogre Fighter 8
STR 24
DEX 11
CON 19
INT 8
WIS 12
CHA 6
SPd 20
INI +4
Att: +8/+3
+17/+12 (+8 base, +7 STR, +2 weapon, +1 feat, -1 size)
Dmg: 2d6+11 17-20x2
AC: 29 (+11 armor, +5 shield, +4 natural, -1 size)
HP: 8d10+36 (Max: 116, LG: 88)
F: +13
R: +5
W: +6
Feats: 8: Focus, Specialization, Imp Crit: Greatsword, Iron Will, Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Blindfight
8 Skillpoints
---------------------------------------------
Normal combat, starting from 5ft away:
Human +17/+12 - needs a 12 and 17 to hit
Ogre +17/+12 - needs a 11 and 16 to hit, counting dodge
Using Max HP and discounting crits:
The human needs about 8.5 hits to drop the ogre.
The ogre needs about 7.2 hits to drop the human.
Using Living Greyhawk HP:
The human needs about 6.5 hits to drop the ogre.
The ogre needs about 5.2 hits to drop the human.
Gee, and the ogre hits more often too. Crits would speed up and randomize the process, but since both guys have the same crit range, wouldn't alter the average outcome.
Comparing Grapple checks, the human has +14, and the half ogre has +19. The difference here is rather considerable.
The human has the advantage on saves, but only by a little. The half ogres immunity to person affecting spells should provide a counterbalance for the weaker will save.
The main drawback is the extreme lack of skill points for the Half Ogre. Of course, if we use a Half Orc instead of human base character, the Half Ogre is only short 2 skill points and still has significant combat advantages.
And then there's reach.
If, at +2 LA, the Half Ogre has advantages over the Half Orc in pure combat ability, then at +1 LA, there's clearly something wrong. Half Orcs are the core race for pure butt-kicking, monster slaying action. Half Ogres shouldn't be able to out damage them and have reach too.
Fedifensor
Explorer
Balancing Half-Ogres
Okay, can we agree that there are three central parts of the Half-Ogre writeup that cause concern?
#1 is +6 to Strength, allowing for a starting character to have up to a 24 Strength.
#2 is +4 natural armor, significantly improving the defensive ability of the character. A net +3 AC even after the size adjustment.
#3 is the 10' reach. As long as the ogre is combat-savvy, that's going to work out to an extra attack before an opponent can get in range. And I haven't even brought up Large and in Charge...
Of the three, the 10' reach concerns me the most, followed by the natural armor bonus. As it stands, I don't think a half-ogre should be a +1 ECL. Even if you dropped the natural armor to a +2 bonus, I'd be very concerned about the reach. Frontloading an additional attack, in combination with a high Strength, can make a huge difference in a combat...especially in combination with the right feats.
Imagine a half-ogre with both Spring Attack and Large and in Charge. Now that's a nasty combination. Your opponent tries to move into your reach, you block them with Large and in Charge. Your opponent finally gets inside your reach, you Spring Attack and move 30 feet away. For added fun, have your half-ogre wield a 2-handed reach weapon, such as a huge Glaive.
Okay, can we agree that there are three central parts of the Half-Ogre writeup that cause concern?
#1 is +6 to Strength, allowing for a starting character to have up to a 24 Strength.
#2 is +4 natural armor, significantly improving the defensive ability of the character. A net +3 AC even after the size adjustment.
#3 is the 10' reach. As long as the ogre is combat-savvy, that's going to work out to an extra attack before an opponent can get in range. And I haven't even brought up Large and in Charge...
Of the three, the 10' reach concerns me the most, followed by the natural armor bonus. As it stands, I don't think a half-ogre should be a +1 ECL. Even if you dropped the natural armor to a +2 bonus, I'd be very concerned about the reach. Frontloading an additional attack, in combination with a high Strength, can make a huge difference in a combat...especially in combination with the right feats.
Imagine a half-ogre with both Spring Attack and Large and in Charge. Now that's a nasty combination. Your opponent tries to move into your reach, you block them with Large and in Charge. Your opponent finally gets inside your reach, you Spring Attack and move 30 feet away. For added fun, have your half-ogre wield a 2-handed reach weapon, such as a huge Glaive.
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green slime
First Post
But spring attack allows the combatant to get in close and dirty as well, so...
Still doesn't prevent a H-Ogre armed with a Huge Spiked Chain from 5-ft-stepping and full attacking... 15 ft reach... 2d6 damage +Str, hmm nice.
*makes mental note* -Got to recruit one of those NPC's.
Still doesn't prevent a H-Ogre armed with a Huge Spiked Chain from 5-ft-stepping and full attacking... 15 ft reach... 2d6 damage +Str, hmm nice.
*makes mental note* -Got to recruit one of those NPC's.
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