[Savage Species]Half-ogre overpowered??

[Grog]

If you're talking about high levels, don't forget that a human or half-orc fighter can get an amulet of natural armor, which will totally negate the half-ogre's AC bonus. So the only advantages the half-ogre will have at high levels are the strength and the reach - and the reach can be gained through reach weapons for the other races.

 

[Spatula]

I would ask how anyone was playing a Thri-Kreen before Savage Species came out, since it wasn't an official 3E race before then ... ! And, up until SS, there was no such thing as a Gythka in 3E ... not that I heard of!

The SS Thri-kreen is a reprint and slight modification of the MM2 thri-kreen, which is a "reprint" and modification of the PsiHB web enhancement thri-kreen...

In the web enhancement, thri-kreen were 5 HD terrors, to the point where you'd have to be a pretty high level in order to use one as a PC. The gythka did 1d8/1d8. The MM2 reduced the HD & the stat bonuses, split the thri-kreen into psi and non-psi versions, changed the gythka to 2d6/2d6 (!!!!) and allowed thri-kreen to wield two gythka at once. SS changed the stat bonuses slightly, made the gyhtka 1d8/1d8 again, and added in weapon familiarity.

I'll point out, that +6 from strength means he's got at least a 22. Given Thri-Kreen only get +2 strength ... he's gotten some adds to it, somehow ... right?

Could be 18 base, +2 race, +2 level increases (at 4 and 8 HD). It is a 10th level character though, so having some stat-boosting items is pretty much expected at that point.

Ch 1, Exotic Weapon, Gythka yes, even for a thri-kreen!

Monsters are automatically proficient with weapons & armor listed in their description. Although SS changes the thri-kreen description to give them weapon familiarity instead, but this character is a fighter so it's still proficient.

So his BAB is +9/+4 ... bumped to +18/+13 base, then dropped to +14/+9 for use of Multiweapon Fighting.

This I think is key. Neither the MM2 nor SS mention what penalties to use when using two gyhtka, although the second gythka certainly isn't a light weapon. So the thri-kreen should be at -4/-4 rather than -2/-2.

So, you have four attacks at +14, and four attacks at +9. Still eight attacks, I'll grant ...

Nine attacks, actually, since it still gets its bite attack (at +9, 1d4+3 dam).

(Multiweapon imposes harsher penalties than Two-Weapon ... for a reason!).

Eh? They both use the same exact penalties, compare the text of the multi- feats to the regular ones. If the thri-kreen were using 4 short swords, he'd be attacking at +16/+11 instead of +14/+9, but then he'd only be doing d6 instead of d8 damage.

Just because something CAN be abused, doesn't mean it, itself is abusive

What else should a 4 armed fighter focus on, if not multi-weapon fighting? The only thing that looks off to me is the AC - I wouldn't let a thri-kreen wear any armor at all (aside from using a single shield), but the rules don't comment on that so I can see how things might have gotten out of hand there.

BTW, the proper feat breakdown for a 7th level thri-kreen fighter powergamer is:
1 HD: Multidexterity
1 F/3HD: Weapon Focus (gythka), Multiweapon Fighting
2 F/4HD: open
4 F/6HD: Weapon Specialization (gythka), open
6 F/8HD: Improved Crit (gythka)
7 F/9HD: Improved Multiweapon Fighting

 

[Spatula]

If you're talking about high levels, don't forget that a human or half-orc fighter can get an amulet of natural armor, which will totally negate the half-ogre's AC bonus.

Amulets of natural armor ain't cheap. And that's money the non-half-ogre can spend that the half-ogre can put towards something else.

EDIT: Specifically, a +4 amulet costs 32,000 gp.

So the only advantages the half-ogre will have at high levels are the strength and the reach - and the reach can be gained through reach weapons for the other races.

And the half-ogre can use reach weapons of his own to gain the upper hand again.

 

[Pax]

Thri-Kreen are detailed in the MM2, where it specifically gives ECL adjustments for them in case a player wants to play them.

Ah, I don't have MM2 (yet).

Also, you're confusing the Savage Species terms of ECL and LA. They're LA +1, and with two HD, that makes them ECL 3.

I've seen the terms used inerchangably here on ENWorld; an ECL with a "+" is obviously an adjustment, while "starting ECL" is obviously HD + LA.

Thri-Kreen are automatically proficient with the Gythka and Chatkcha. In Savage Species, its explicit, but even in the MM2, the entry for those weapon implied it, and the statblock for the Thri-Kreen did not list Exotic Weapon Prof, even though it provided attack and damage rolls for both weapons, so most people assumed they were only Exotic for other races even then.

Ah, I missed that last bit of the SavS entry. However, they're nto "automatically proficient" ... they treat them as martial weapons (probably a forward-compatibility issue, similar to how I've heard 3.5 will treat ALL racial weapons ... like the Dwarven Waraxe ... martial for that race, exotic for all others).

 

[Hardhead]

I've seen the terms used inerchangably here on ENWorld; an ECL with a "+" is obviously an adjustment, while "starting ECL" is obviously HD + LA.

Yeah, that's true, but you said:

Thri-Kreen is only ECL+1, then the 2HD of Thri-kreen ... that gives him nine HD/class-levels. So he gets feats as a 9th level character (with 7 fighter levels); at a blind guess for his feats:

Whether you're using the pre-SS definition of ECL or the post-SS version, ECL has always included HD in the calculation. So, by the pre-SS definition, Thri-Kreen are ECL +3 (because it figured the total adjustment). Post-SS, they'd be ECL 3 (LA +1, 2 Monster HD). In neither case are they ECL +1.


- Z a c h

 

[Victim]

If you're talking about high levels, don't forget that a human or half-orc fighter can get an amulet of natural armor, which will totally negate the half-ogre's AC bonus. So the only advantages the half-ogre will have at high levels are the strength and the reach - and the reach can be gained through reach weapons for the other races.

And the half ogre has an extra 32k to spend on other items. Seems fair enough.

Half Ogres can also use reach weapons. Because reach weapons double the threatened range, and half ogres can take feats like Large and in Charge, I'd expect weapons like the Spiked Chain to be very common among half ogres.

 

[Pax]

Victim: no, actually. You don't double reach for a Half Ogre. A Reach weapon for a M creature, scaled up for an L creature ... gains all of 5' of reach.

Don't ask me why, that's what the SavS says ... and it's got the most thorough rules on weapon size changes I've seen yet (though theyc ontradict the DMG slightly, it's stil a more COMPLETE set of rules).

A Grig (Tiny, natural reach 0) with a Longspear scaled to it, has Reach 5'. 8)

An Ogre (Large, natural reach 10') with a longspear scaled to IT, has ... Reach 15'. *shrug*


Each step up or down in size is directly an increase or decrease of 5' in reach (to a minimum each of the wielder's innate reach).

 

[Hypersmurf]

Victim: no, actually. You don't double reach for a Half Ogre. A Reach weapon for a M creature, scaled up for an L creature ... gains all of 5' of reach.

Which, it must be pointed out, is in direct contradiction to the Large Creatures with Reach Weapons rule in the PHB.

-Hyp.

 

[Delgar]

The reach thing is possibly something that will be clarified in 3.5 yes?

Delgar

 

[Hardhead]

Check page 42 of Savage Species:

For each size increase of a reach weapon, increase it's reah by 5 feet.