[Savage Species]Half-ogre overpowered??

[Spatula]

Wrong acid test. that's NOT how the book does it.

The book is actually very vague on the tests. It just says "which would you rather play?" and provides some broad points of comparison. Exact stats, equipment, race, etc. are not mentioned. What the book gives you is a broad overview and is not very useful except as a guideline. You need to have some concrete examples of X vs Y in order to come to a conclusion - thus my example.

I chose all 10's in stats because it keeps the math simple and clearly shows how ability score bonuses affect the numbers. If you use the standard stat array or something else, then you introduce more variables - what's the optimal placement of stats? It's not necessarily the same for both sides of the comparison.

I chose the half-orc to compare the half-ogre against because it cuts down on the variables. If you use humans instead, for example, you have to figure out how to weigh darkvision, the stats, and the rest against the extra feat and skill points. While the half-ogre already has everything the half-orc does, plus more. It's the "more" that is the issue, after all. If you compare against no race as you suggest, then the half-ogre looks even better as you're comparing it against a less than 0 ECL "race."

I was vague on equipment because some of it (huge longbow, mighty huge longbow) can't be priced. The only real decision here is that both use the best one-handed sword and best non-mighty bow available to them.

Compare to a default member of the class the Half-Ogre is best suited for (which would be Fighter or Barbarian).

I chose fighter. Simpler to compare number of feats, rather than various barbarian class abilities, vs the half-ogre's "more".

And you compare at the EXACT SAME ECL.

That's what I did... initially the half-ogre clocks in at +3, so I compared at +3 (half-ogre F1 vs half-orc F4). +3 is too much, so I compared at +2 (looked good to me but others disagree), then at +1. Just as Savage Species tells you to. See - I can follow directions after all.

Someone mentions armor prices in a later post, however that only matters in the +1 LA case. At +2 or +3, a 1st level half-ogre can afford magic armor, and magic armor automatically resizes to fit the wearer. So no "double cost" for armor - the half-ogre PC just buys a magical medium-sized suit. And in the +1 case, the "other side" of the comparison can't afford full-plate anyway.

EDIT: tag errors

 

[Spatula]

Why in the hell is it irrelevant? Just because the "acid test" in Savage Species (a book I am regretting purchasing more and more) only uses the very first level as a comparison doesn't mean that the other levels shouldn't be considered. Duh.

I was surprised they didn't go into comparing higher levels as well as low levels, myself. Maybe they ran out of room and left it out of the book. Or not.

At least with the brute-types, like the ogre, the numbers favor the brute as you advance levels. It's the lower levels when they're the weakest, because their CON bonus hasn't closed the gap on whatever HD they lost to their level adjustment, and they're behind on class abilities (no specialization, no uncanny dodge, etc.). Once they start catching up in those things, the brutes start to really outclass the regular characters - in their specialty, anyway. An ogre will never make a really great archer, for example, compared to a human or elf.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

The acid test is lame. I use the munchkin test instead:


Whenever the munchkin in my group wants to use any new rule emphatically, then I know it's overpowered. Currently, he's obsessed with Thri-kreen, before that it was archers, and soon he'll profess his love of the half-ogre. All is well.

 

[Pax]

The acid test is lame. I use the munchkin test instead:


Whenever the munchkin in my group wants to use any new rule emphatically, then I know it's overpowered. Currently, he's obsessed with Thri-kreen, before that it was archers, and soon he'll profess his love of the half-ogre. All is well.

The problem there is, to many "munchkins" exotic = advantage.

That's all.

Exotic.

IOW, some folks who're normally munchkins will be attracted to something SOLELY because it's DIFFERENT; solely because "noone else has one" and so, to them, it gives them some especial advantage.

In all honesty, Thri-kreen aren't badly balanced, IMO. They bear careful watching -- as does anything, really -- but not unbalanced.

Now, a Insectile Winged FeralHalfogre ... that'd be something to be EXTREMELY cautious about. Heh. >8)

 

[Hardhead]

Everyone here will probably be interested in this thread on the WotC messagebaords, where Rich Redman essentailly says, "yeah, LA +1 was probably not enough."

BTW, I've been hanging out on the SS board for a few days now, and I've got to say Rich and has been really stand-up over there, answering questions, providing help, and even publicly berating himself over mistakes of his (he felt he "dropped the ball" by not including rules on how monk unarmed attacks interacted with multiple natural attacks).

A lot of designers would defend their decisions to the death, or at least not comment on the subject. But when he thinks he makes a mistake, he admits it. He's, like, one of my new favorite game designers now.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

In all honesty, Thri-kreen aren't badly balanced, IMO. They bear careful watching -- as does anything, really -- but not unbalanced.

Our ECL 10 Munchkin Thrikreen (ECL 3) Fighter L7 has 8 attacks per round with two Gythka. (Up until SS, they did 2d6 damage. He'd probably switch to double-bladed swords now since SS came out.)

His attacks look like:

9 BAB
1 WF
6 Str
2 Enhancement
-2 MWF

For +16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+11/+11/+11

Damage looks like:

1d8+10*2, 1d8+7*6


He also has a 32 AC. He also never needs to sleep. His jump skill is outstanding. His Spot and Listen scores are also decent due to the beginning Thri-kreen class skills.
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I'd like to point out that a L10 fighter with a Gythka would have 4 attacks and would suck rocks compared to a Thri-kreen.

The problem there is, too many "munchkins" exotic = advantage.

That's all.

Exotic.

I can't comment on "many" munchkins. I can only comment on mine.

I can only comment on the fact that the Thri-kreen detailed above recently ripped off his own arm as soon as he had enough cash for an Arm of Nyr. (I showed you the pre-Arm of Nyr stats.)

If this is your idea of "exotic", then I will happily disagree.

 

[Darklone]

Hehehe... a player with sooo many attacks... cute. I'd love to put him against a DR15/somewhat monster!

 

[Pax]

Our ECL 10 Munchkin Thrikreen (ECL 3) Fighter L7 has 8 attacks per round with two Gythka. (Up until SS, they did 2d6 damage. He'd probably switch to double-bladed swords now since SS came out.)

I would ask how anyone was playing a Thri-Kreen before Savage Species came out, since it wasn't an official 3E race before then ... ! And, up until SS, there was no such thing as a Gythka in 3E ... not that I heard of!

His attacks look like:

9 BAB
1 WF
6 Str
2 Enhancement
-2 MWF

I'll point out, that +6 from strength means he's got at least a 22. Given Thri-Kreen only get +2 strength ... he's gotten some adds to it, somehow ... right?

For +16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+11/+11/+11

Damage looks like:

1d8+10*2, 1d8+7*6[/b][/quote]

I'm not even sure that's POSSIBLE, legally; let's take a look, shall we? So, let's see; first off, a Nonpsionic Thri-Kreen is only ECL+1, then the 2HD of Thri-kreen ... that gives him nine HD/class-levels. So he gets feats as a 9th level character (with 7 fighter levels); at a blind guess for his feats:


Ch 1, Exotic Weapon, Gythka yes, even for a thri-kreen!
Ftr 1, Multidexterity
Ftr 2, Multiweapon Fighting
Ch 3, W Focus, Gythka
Ftr 4, W Specialise, Gythka

(that leaves three more feats, the Fighter(6) feat, and the 6th and 9th Character-level feats).

Improved Multiweapon Fighting requires a BAB of +9, so he can JUST qualify. Greater Multiweapon requires a BAB of +15, so, no way this side of the Nine Hells. Yet. 8)

Normally, without feats, he'd be at -6 for the one, primary weapon and -10 for the otehr. With Multidexterity, it's -6 to all of them; with Multiweapon on top of that, it's -4 to all of them. Already we see his attack bonus eroding, hmm?

Now, Improved Multiweapon gives one additional attack with each off-hand weapon, at -5. Just like Improved Two-Weapon fighting.

Now to try to cut down his number of attacks. ONE WEAPON is primary. The others are all secondary -- ALL of them.

So his BAB is +9/+4 ... bumped to +18/+13 base, then dropped to +14/+9 for use of Multiweapon Fighting.

So, you have four attacks at +14, and four attacks at +9. Still eight attacks, I'll grant ... but not as hard-hitting:

+14/+14/+14/+14//+9/+9/+9/+9.

And only on a full attack, of course. The damage is spot-on, but that's no surprise. Frankly, IMO, the Thri-Kreen would be better off fighting with the ONE Gythka ... in all four hands! Sure, cuts his number of attacks in half, but he gets an additional FULL STRENGTH BONUS on each hit (SavS; +1/2 STR for each additional hand that can wield a weapon).

He also has a 32 AC. He also never needs to sleep. His jump skill is outstanding. His Spot and Listen scores are also decent due to the beginning Thri-kreen class skills.[/uote]

32 AC? Sounds like you're playing an over-the-top attribute game to start with. Or you haven't charged him the EXHORBITANT armor costs you should have been.

After all, magic armor will RESIZE, but it won't RESHAPE ... which gives himproblems for his definitely-non-humanoid shape. Like those two extra arms!

I'd like to point out that a L10 fighter with a Gythka would have 4 attacks and would suck rocks compared to a Thri-kreen.

Not really. Four attacks, all at ... +3 to hit, relative to the Thri-kreen (Multiweapon imposes harsher penalties than Two-Weapon ... for a reason!). And the Fighter owuld have a post-BAB-9 feat slot, with which to take Improved Critical, too.

I can't comment on "many" munchkins. I can only comment on mine.

I can only comment on the fact that the Thri-kreen detailed above recently ripped off his own arm as soon as he had enough cash for an Arm of Nyr. (I showed you the pre-Arm of Nyr stats.)

If this is your idea of "exotic", then I will happily disagree.

That;'s my idea of someone ABUSING a race which doesn't HAVE to be so unbalanced. Friend, in my quarter-century of gaming, I've seen people abuse the rules that badly with falflings, even!

Just because something CAN be abused, doesn't mean it, itself is abusive ... ! 8)

 

[Darklone]

That's why we have a munchkin test

 

[Hardhead]

I would ask how anyone was playing a Thri-Kreen before Savage Species came out, since it wasn't an official 3E race before then ... ! And, up until SS, there was no such thing as a Gythka in 3E ... not that I heard of!

Thri-Kreen are detailed in the MM2, where it specifically gives ECL adjustments for them in case a player wants to play them.

It's in the MM2, towards the end of the Thri-Kreen entry.

Also, you're confusing the Savage Species terms of ECL and LA. They're LA +1, and with two HD, that makes them ECL 3.

Ch 1, Exotic Weapon, Gythka yes, even for a thri-kreen!

Thri-Kreen are automatically proficient with the Gythka and Chatkcha. In Savage Species, its explicit, but even in the MM2, the entry for those weapon implied it, and the statblock for the Thri-Kreen did not list Exotic Weapon Prof, even though it provided attack and damage rolls for both weapons, so most people assumed they were only Exotic for other races even then.