[Savage Species]Half-ogre overpowered??

[Forrester]

And frankly, if you really used the dumbass "only look at the first level" Acid Test . . . well, no one would EVER play a drow, would they?

Compare a 1st level drow cleric with a 3rd level elf cleric. Or a 1st level drow wizard with a 3rd level elf wizard. Or on, down the line. What kind of freak would rather play the drow?

Clearly, a level adjustment of +2 is far too large. It should be +1, at most.

 

[Hardhead]

Why in the hell is it irrelevant? Just because the "acid test" in Savage Species (a book I am regretting purchasing more and more) only uses the very first level as a comparison doesn't mean that the other levels shouldn't be considered. Duh.

I agree.

"Mac daddy", no. Has an edge, yes -- I've never disputed the Halfogre was a strong +1.

But it's a weak +2.

Why do you think he's a weak +2? I did a comparison between a H/Ogre and a human on the first page of the thread, in which the H/Ogre still won or tied every category except HP.

And even if he was, he'd still fit +2 better. The Acid Test doesn't say to err on the low side (which would make the PHB races crappy compared to later printed races, anyway). It says if the new creature is obviously superior, the ECL is too low. You agree it's obviously superior. So it's too low.

 

[Pax]

Why in the hell is it irrelevant? Just because the "acid test" in Savage Species (a book I am regretting purchasing more and more) only uses the very first level as a comparison doesn't mean that the other levels shouldn't be considered. Duh.

BEcause it is not humanly possible to balance even the PHB races at every single level!!!

Go ahead, compare the PHB races, for every class, pretige class, and multiclass, just through the first, oh .... fourty levels.

When you're done -- probably in about, oh, eight years -- get back to us, and you can re-start with 4.0 rules.

SavS specifically states that balance at ALL levels is impossible.

Further: the first time the Half-ogre can afford Full Plate armor and a Large Shield (both nonmagical and not masterwork) ... the Halforc can nearly afford +1 versions of both.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Further: the first time the Half-ogre can afford Full Plate armor and a Large Shield (both nonmagical and not masterwork) ... the Halforc can nearly afford +1 versions of both.

Arguably, though, the Half-Ogre can then beat up the Half-Orc and take his magic armour, which resizes to fit the wearer...

-Hyp.

 

[Hardhead]

Go ahead, compare the PHB races, for every class, pretige class, and multiclass, just through the first, oh .... fourty levels.

Very very few people use the Epic Level Handbook.

And while I think making builds for every level is dumb, keeping an eye to later levels when comparing them is only intelligent.

For instance, at first level the H/Ogre is behind the H/Orc by 4.5 HP. He won't stay behind, though, because of his CON bonus. Eventually he'll catch up and pass him. That's worth thinking about, even if you don't do builds for later levels.

 

[Forrester]

BEcause it is not humanly possible to balance even the PHB races at every single level!!!

So you should only do it at the first level available? That's profoundly stupid. If you did, drow would NEVER get a level adjustment of +2. NEVER. It's even more profoundly stupid when you consider how fast level advancement is at low levels -- in my experience it's at least once every other session, if not faster.

My personal inclination for the templates/one HD creatures is to add four or five levels, then check. A drow 4th level cleric vs an elvish 6th level cleric, for instance, starts to look roughly equivalent because of the SR and other abilities.

And a half-ogre/Fighter4 will crush a half-orc Fighter5 every day of the week, and twice on Sundays. It's not even close.

 

[Pax]

So you should only do it at the first level available? That's profoundly stupid. If you did, drow would NEVER get a level adjustment of +2. NEVER. It's even more profoundly stupid when you consider how fast level advancement is at low levels -- in my experience it's at least once every other session, if not faster.

So, you should find the (perhaps only) level at which a creatue is "too good" and use that to justify increasing the ECL even further?

Besides, I didn't write the rules.

And a half-ogre/Fighter4 will crush a half-orc Fighter5 every day of the week, and twice on Sundays. It's not even close.

Halforc Fighter-5? Well of course -- you choce a nice breakpoint, that 5th level of fighter doesn't do diddly for the Halforc, other than some BAB and one hit die.

Convenient that. And that is, of course, the very reason you DON'T go fishing for levels where there's an imbalance. Fish long enough and you will find something on your hook.

 

[Victim]

Except at low levels, the half ogre will have significant advantages over a normal fighter. About the only levels in which the normal human or half orc stand a chance would be when the human has an extra attack.

Above, I compared level 10 and 8 characters - so the fighter levels are important. Even with a +2 adjustment, the half ogre has the edge.

 

[Forrester]

So, you should find the (perhaps only) level at which a creatue is "too good" and use that to justify increasing the ECL even further?

Besides, I didn't write the rules.

First of all, what rules are you talking about? Are you saying that this retarded Acid Test is Official and thus cannot be questioned?

And if you really think that it's the only level for which a half-ogre beats a half-orc, you're a dolt.

Do half-ogre Fighter6 vs half-orc Fighter7. Do ANY comparison above those levels. Hell, you could probably even do half-ogre Fighter5 vs half-orc Fighter6. Yeah, the half-orc has an iterative attack, but he's still going to get sliced in two.

Do the math. In fact, that's probably too much of a hardship -- READ the math. Lord knows its been posted enough in this thread. It's really not rocket science.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

So, you should find the (perhaps only) level at which a creatue is "too good" and use that to justify increasing the ECL even further?

If you review the rest of this thread, you'll find that clvl 5 is not the only level at which the half-ogre stomps fighters from other races into the ground. In fact, just a couple pages ago, you'll find several examples of ideal situations for the non-half-ogre fighter (clvl 6, reach treated as irrelevant; a half-ogre with standard feats that don't take advantage of his reach or other abilities) which demonstrate the half-ogre to be roughly equal to a fighter two levels higher than him.

Besides, I didn't write the rules.

That's a pretty good defense of yourself Pax, but that you would have to use it doesn't say much for the rules themselves now does it?

Halforc Fighter-5? Well of course -- you choce a nice breakpoint, that 5th level of fighter doesn't do diddly for the Halforc, other than some BAB and one hit die.

Right. Review the previous pages. You'll find that selecting different break points doesn't change the equation. I'd wager a half-ogre fighter 5 against a half-orc fighter 6. (Especially if I got to choose the half-ogre's feats). I'd definitely pick the ECL +1 half-ogre over the half-orc for an adventuring party (where the dynamics are somewhat different from one on one encounters). And that's the IDEAL comparison point from the half-orc's POV. After that, it just gets worse for him.

In fact, pick nearly any break point you want. Clvl 7? A half-ogre fighter 6 against a half-orc fighter 7 no problem. Clvl 8, clvl 9, clvl 10? Half Ogre fighter. All the way. Clvl 11 (The half-orc's next best shot but he's still not going to win). Clvl 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20? Where is a better break point for the comparison? I suggest that clvl 1, 6, 11, and 16 are not a representative sample of the places to compare the two characters.

Convenient that. And that is, of course, the very reason you DON'T go fishing for levels where there's an imbalance. Fish long enough and you will find something on your hook.

The same could be said for level one comparisons. And in that case it's accurate. Just about every other level at which you could analyze the half-ogre demonstrates the imbalance Forrester is mentioning.