[Savage Species]Half-ogre overpowered??

[Pax]

First of all, what rules are you talking about? Are you saying that this retarded Acid Test is Official and thus cannot be questioned?

Retarded? I suppose you have a better (meaning, more accurate and still practical) method?

And, when speaking of the Half-Ogre, yes those rules are official ... after all, botht eh Halfogre and those "retarded" rules, are form the exact same product.

And if you really think that it's the only level for which a half-ogre beats a half-orc, you're a dolt.

If you, for some reason, cannot refrain from unprovoked name-calling ... perhaps you should instead try to refrain from posting.

Do half-ogre Fighter6 vs half-orc Fighter7.

Another too convenient breakpoint, again the Fighter(7) level gives only BAB and level.

Do ANY comparison above those levels. Hell, you could probably even do half-ogre Fighter5 vs half-orc Fighter6. Yeah, the half-orc has an iterative attack, but he's still going to get sliced in two.

A different comparison that. The Halforc also has a new feat as a fighter, and a new feat as a characetr. Two feats.

At that level, the Halfogre gives up two feats, +1 BAB and the first iterative attack, and a HD ... for a comparative +4 strenght, +4 CON, +4 NAtural armor, and being Size LArge (which imposes a -1 to AC and attacks, but grants reach) -- in comparison to the halforc, of course.

It's not QUITE so clear that the halfogre is going to always be the superior fighter; it depends entirely on what KIND of fighter you want. I daresay, it's not clear at all. Might it USUALLY be better? Sure, maybe.

So what?

Halflings are usually better at beign rogues than anyone else; should we penalise them for that?

Do the math. In fact, that's probably too much of a hardship -- READ the math. Lord knows its been posted enough in this thread. It's really not rocket science.

Again -- if you cannot refrain from being needlessly insulting, refrain from posting. Walk away, cool off, find a new thread to read and reply to.

I have taken the "Devils advocate" stance WRT the Half-Ogre simply to see the whole thing examined as thoroughly as possible. Personally, I think it'd be best if the HalfOgre was a 2HD Giant first and foremost (since then, the BAB, hp, skill points, etc, etc, would be lower even with a "mere" +1 ECL adjustment -- Giant HD aren't worth as much, to a Tank-style fighter, as Fighter levels are. Having half the HD of an Ogre would also be -thematically- correct. I can also see dropping the NAtural Armor to +3, instead of +4. A marginal difference, but added to making it a 2HD monster race (beginning ECL3 without class levels), would probably balance it uite nicely.

As for reading the math: I have, and I have poked holes in it, left and right -- all the while trying very hard to remain as scrupulously civil as I could.

Please return the courtesy of similar effort to maintain civility on your part -- or just drop the issue entirely.

 

[LuYangShih]

Personally, I think the Half-Ogre would be fine at ECL 3. I've seen what creatures with Reach and high Strength can do, and it's not pretty. And as other posters have said, you do not base a races ECL off of their disadvantages, you base it off of their strengths.

 

[Pax]

You should base ECL off of BOTH. IOW, off the SUM TOTAL of the race/creature.

In fact, I'm of the opinion that Kobolds (largely due to their abysmal attributes) deserve to be ECL -1 ... 8)

 

[Forrester]

You should base ECL off of BOTH. IOW, off the SUM TOTAL of the race/creature.

In fact, I'm of the opinion that Kobolds (largely due to their abysmal attributes) deserve to be ECL -1 ... 8)

But . . . but . . . it says on p.13 that you are supposed to use the race/creature's highest ability scores! Are you suggesting that we don't follow the RULES??!

And kobolds don't have abysmal attributes. They have a -4 to one ability -- Strength -- and that's it for penalties. They get +2 to Dex, of course. In sum, you'd be an idiot to give them ECL -1 for any spellcasting class. If one wanted to play a fighter, though, ECL -1 (or even -2) would probably be appropriate, as they've practically got a -6 hit to Strength for high Strengths.

 

[Hardhead]

It's not QUITE so clear that the halfogre is going to always be the superior fighter; it depends entirely on what KIND of fighter you want. I daresay, it's not clear at all. Might it USUALLY be better? Sure, maybe.

So what?

Halflings are usually better at beign rogues than anyone else; should we penalise them for that?

There's nothing wrong with a race specializing in one thing, or at least being good at it. But I don't think that should be used as an excuse to create new races that are even better than the PHB races. With that kind of mentality, there'd be no reason to ever play the PHB races. And players that pick the standard races shouldn't feel penalized for picking them, just becuase new races from new books are better.


- Z a c h

 

[Pax]

But . . . but . . . it says on p.13 that you are supposed to use the race/creature's highest ability scores! Are you suggesting that we don't follow the RULES??!

Says no such thing in SavS on p13. It comments that you should see WHICH ability score(s) are highest, determine which class(es) benefit most from those scores, and use that class for the comparison.

That is the ONLY time you look at the highest ability scores.

And kobolds don't have abysmal attributes. They have a -4 to one ability -- Strength -- and that's it for penalties. They get +2 to Dex, of course. In sum, you'd be an idiot to give them ECL -1 for any spellcasting class. If one wanted to play a fighter, though, ECL -1 (or even -2) would probably be appropriate, as they've practically got a -6 hit to Strength for high Strengths.

According toe SavS, unbalanced ability scores positive is worth +1 level adjustment.

By logical extension, unbalanced ability scores negative should be worth -1 level adjustment. Since kobolds have nothing else especial going for them ... *shrug* ...

And, while you would acid test a kobold against whatever benefits most from Dexterity (rogues, actually) ... you would START at ECL -1 (aside from the artifical floor of ECL +0).

I think Kobolds should get something else, to make them a viable PC race. Bonus feats/skill points like humans, maybe. Free "spellcasting prodigy: sorceror" perhaps ... *shrug* something to bring them up to par with the PHB races.

 

[Hardhead]

OK, in response to Pax's post, let's do another comparison, this one at the worst possible breakpoint for the Half-Ogre. Every six levels, the non-H/Ogre is behind in iterative attacks. So lets do a comparison at H/Ogre 5, H/Orc 6.

At this point, they can both easily afford Full Plate. Hell, we'll even give the H/Orc magical armor to help compensate for the H/Ogre's armor costing more (assuming he bought it, and didn't pilfer it off of a large sized villan). Both will be using two handed weapons, since that's the most popular setup for high strength fighters. We'll use 10s in each stat, since that dumb rule is in SS, and I want to do this "by the book."

Attacks:
H/Orc: +8/+3
H/Ogre: +8
Weapon Focus assumed for both

Damage:
H/Orc: 2d6+3 (average of 10)
H/Ogre 2d8+6 (average of 15)
Weapon Specialization assumed for both

HP:
H/Orc: 37.5
H/Ogre: 37 (because of CON bonus)

AC:
H/Orc 19 (full plate +1)
H/Ogre 20 (full plate, nat armor -1 dex (because we're doing all 10s), -1 size)

OK. Let's get ready to rumble.

H/Orc hits H/Ogre 45% of the time with the first attack, and 20% of the time with the second. He deals 6.5 damage per turn on average, and kills H/Ogre in 5.7 turns.

H/Ogre hits H/Orc 50% of the time with his only attack, and so deals 7.5 damage on average every turn. He kills H/Orc in 5 rounds.

So, even at the worst break-point for him, H/Ogre still wins.



Other stuff:

Fights don't count in crits, which would help the H/Ogre more due to higher damage output.

H/Orc has two more feats (one for being sixth level, one for his bonus fighter feat. Note that next level, feat numbers will be even.)

H/Ogre has reach, which wasn't taken into account during the fight.

H/Ogre is immune to effects that affect medium sized creatures, like Charm Person or Hold Person.

H/Ogre has a -4 to Hide due to size.

H/Ogre is a Scorpio, and loves long walks on the beach, while H/Orc is a Libra, and sometimes knows things before they happen.

Both have Darkvision.

H/Ogre gets +4 to grapple, disarm, and sunder attemps due to his size.

Dwarves and Gnomes get bonuses vs H/Ogres.

So, besides the fact that the H/Ogre rules in striaght-up combat, he seems to get better benies that weren't counted in the combat section (it's hard to understimate reach, I think).


- Z a c h

 

[Hypersmurf]

A couple of points:

Half-orc gets two more feats. (Ftr 6 and CL 6)
You forgot the magic armor you promised him.

(One of those two feats could be Dodge, raising his AC to 20... except that it would break the average-stats rule. Shame about that )

Despite this, I agree that half-ogres's by no means a clear loser at ECL 6 with LA +1... and he's superior pretty much everywhere else.

-Hyp.

 

[Forrester]

So, besides the fact that the H/Ogre rules in striaght-up combat, he seems to get better benies that weren't counted in the combat section (it's hard to understimate reach, I think).
- Z a c h

You forgot the +4 to grapple, disarm, and sunder attemps. Not entirely trivial.

 

[Hardhead]

Half-orc gets two more feats. (Ftr 6 and CL 6)
You forgot the magic armor you promised him.

(One of those two feats could be Dodge, raising his AC to 20... except that it would break the average-stats rule. Shame about that )

Despite this, I agree that half-ogres's by no means a clear loser at ECL 6 with LA +1... and he's superior pretty much everywhere else.

The armor has been added, and the math changed accordingly. Thanks.

Also, I added the grapple bonus.