[Savage Species]Half-ogre overpowered??

[Hardhead]

I think with +2 natural armor they'd still be too strong, but it'd be closer. I mean, if you're going to play a monster class, you can technically play an orc, get +4 to Str, no Dex hit (but no Con boost) and have no ECL bonus.

So if you'd allow orcs, the question is whether

+2 Str
+2 Con
-2 Dex
+2 Natural Armor
10' reach

is worth giving up one character level. I think the obvious answer is that it is, in spades. And orcs are an absolutely strong choice for an ECL +0 race if you're a fighter.

Absolutely. Plus, I don't even allow Orcs in my campaign at +0 ECL. I recognize the fact that they're probably weak at +1, but I think they're overpowered at +0. Compared to a half-orc, they get another +2 Str, and only a -2 to Wis (hardly a big deal to fighters). They have the daylight problem, but that's only in "bright daylight," and besides, the +2 to strength cancels out the -1 to hit anyway. You still get a net gain.

Which makes me think that the above with +5 natural armor would be worth two character levels.

At least. Maybe even three.

I mean, look at bugbears -- after accounting for normal hit-dice, they're +1 level, just like half-ogres. They get

+4 Str
+2 Con
+2 Dex
+3 Natural Armor
+4 move silently
BUT no 10' reach, and you're giving up 3 levels of class advancement.

Hmm. That's pretty damn good, actually . . .

Yeah, it is. And Bugbears are ECL +4, according to Savage Species.

I like to think of it this way. Say I'm a half-orc fighter at first level.

For second level, would I rather have an extra level of fighter
(one feat, 4.5 hp on average +con, +1 BAB).

Or, would I rather have +4 STR, +4 CON, -2 DEX, -2 INT, -2 CHA (the difference between half-orc and half-ogre stats), plus a large size, plus +4 nat armor?

Um. I think any character would take the latter, with absolutely no qualms. Half-Ogres are WAY overpowered.

 

[JPL]

I think I want to play a half-ogre monk.

I am deeply ashamed of myself.

He'll be like Kareem Abdul Jabar in "Game of Death."

 

[HellHound]

Half-Ogre Monk?

Feh.

Half-Ogre Psion if you are using the secondary disciplines rules from If THoughts Could Kill or Relics & Rituals II.

24 to a prime "spellcasting" stat is awesome. PLUS you are a combat machine.

 

[jgbrowning]

Feh.

Not that the rest of your quote wasn't brilliant.... its just your use of the word "Feh." has earned you more respect from this little muppet than you'll ever know.


Feh, is far to underutilized.


joe b.

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

I think I want to play a half-ogre monk.

I am deeply ashamed of myself.

He'll be like Kareem Abdul Jabar in "Game of Death."

I want to play a rapping djinni. He'll be just like Shaq in "Kazzam."

 

[Andor]

Half-Ogres

*arn't native outsiders (and therefor arn't immune to say, charm person)

They are however Giants, and therefore immune to charm person. Also hold person. But not sleep.

Yeah, it is. And Bugbears are ECL +4, according to Savage Species.

That's because they come with 3 hit dice. It's actually a +1 level adjustment. Just like half ogres.

There are two halves to the level adjustment. Is a 1st level Half Ogre better than a second level fighter? Probably yes. Is he better than a third level fighter? No. It is a question of where you balance it. They decided to make it +1 one. I think it's riding the ragged edge of a +1 level adjustment, but it's justifiable. A full ogre for example is a +2 level adjustment (Plus 4 hd for a +6 ecl.) If you can be a full ogre, why bother with a half-ogre? I just loaned my book out so I can't do a comparison with ecl+2 creatures, but you might want to give it a look. Generally a +2 is awarded when you start to get into funky powers. Drow for example with their level based SR.

-Andor

 

[Sejs]

They are however Giants

Are they giants? I don't have the book handy atm - I thought they were Humanoid type. If they were Giant type that would swing the balance, because of the immunities to charm person, hold person, etc that you mentioned.

 

[Forrester]

Re: Half-Ogres

There are two halves to the level adjustment. Is a 1st level Half Ogre better than a second level fighter? Probably yes. Is he better than a third level fighter? No. It is a question of where you balance it. They decided to make it +1 one. I think it's riding the ragged edge of a +1 level adjustment, but it's justifiable. A full ogre for example is a +2 level adjustment (Plus 4 hd for a +6 ecl.) If you can be a full ogre, why bother with a half-ogre?

The main reason to be a half-ogre over a full-ogre would be you don't have to delay level gain for four levels.

You could argue that a half-ogre/Fighter5 (using level adjustment +2) is better than an ogre/Fighter1.

Both have 5HD.
The ogre has +2 Con, but the Fighter has four HD of d10hp. Ogre is slightly better off in the long run.
The ogre has -2 to Int, -2 to Chr.
The big difference: The ogre has +4 Strength, but the half-ogre has +1 BAB and all those tasty fighter feats. He will be well on his way towards whatever feat chain he wants; the ogre will be vastly slowed.
I think that ogres have 40' movement speed, so he'd have that as well.

In sum, if half-ogres were +2 level adjustment, you could make a good argument in favor of the half-ogre, even for purely fighter-based leveling. Maybe they're a TAD weak -- give them the 40' move that most giants have, and they're set.

+1 ECL is just way too low for the big guys.

 

[Knight of Neraka]

My concerns with the Half-Ogre

These are my concerns with the Half-Ogre as to why +1 may be a little too low:

1) Sure you get a penalty to Dex, Int, and Cha, but you get a +6 bonus to Str and a +2 bonus to Con. Which means at first level you can possibly begin with a 24 in Str...thats a +7 to hit (melee...actually a +6 to to size modifier) and damage. Thats at 1st level!

2) The Half-Ogre is a large sized creature. Cool, they should be...and even though they get a -1 to their armor class and their attacks, they can still wield a greatsword with one hand and still carry a shield.

3) On top of all this they receive a +4 natural armor. Now again they receive a -1 to their AC, but a bit of leather armor and a shield you have a fortress at first level (actually the equivalent of second level)

4) Of course the Half-Ogre also receives his darkvision, ogre blood, etc., etc. and these don't really matter.

Now, I think the statistics fit well with the Half-Ogre, however, I think the level adjustment needs to be tweaked. Just for kicks I sat down and made one today...I even used WotC's Acid Test (talked about in the book, and no its not that kind of acid). I would choose the 1st level Half-Ogre over a 3rd level character every time.

 

[Hardhead]

+1 ECL is just way too low for the big guys.

Way, way to low. It's quite litterally broken, not just overpowered.

That's because they come with 3 hit dice. It's actually a +1 level adjustment. Just like half ogres.

But it's balanced out because they're forced to take three "levels" in the Humanoid "class," which bites compared to real classes.

There are two halves to the level adjustment. Is a 1st level Half Ogre better than a second level fighter? Probably yes. Is he better than a third level fighter? No.

Let's see. Let's make two characters with the same stats. They have a 16 as their highest stat.

A third level human fighter would have an attack roll of +7. (+3 strength, +3 BAB, Weapon Focus). The half-Ogre would have an attack of +7 (+6 str, +1 BAB, Weapon Focus, -1 size).

The human deals an average of 7.5 damage (1d8+3 damage with his longsword). The half ogre deals an average damage of 13 (2d6+6) with his greatsword he wields in one hand.

The human has three more feats (one racial, one for second level fighter, one for being a third level character).

The half-ogre is unaffected by spells and effects that only work on medium sized humanoids, such as Charm and Hold Person.

The AC of the human is 21 (full plate armor, large steel shield, 12-13 dex). The Ogre has an AC of 23 (full plate armor, large steel shield, +4 nat armor, 10-11 dex. Note that it would be one higher if the player had the brains to put a 14-15 into their dex before racial adjustments, -1 size).

The human has a reach of 5'. The half-ogre a reach of 10'.

The fighter, with a con of 10, has 19 hit points on average. The half-Ogre has 11.

So, uh, yeah. The Ogre looses out slightly in HP (but beats him soundly in AC, so that should even it out, and as levels progress, he'll catch up and pass the human's HP due to the con bonus). He'll be a few feats behind, but nothing serious. Over the next couple levels, he'll catch up a bit there too, but will generally stay two feats behind, in exchange for everything listed here.

Wow. Yeah, I'd actually always pick the Half-ogre/1st level figther over a 3rd level fighter, I didn't even realize it was *that* powerful until I did the math. I think it should maybe even be ECL +3 now.


- Z a c h