[Savage Species]Half-ogre overpowered??

[green slime]

How on Earth does a 3rd level human fighter only get 19 hit points?

On average, using dice, and with a Con of 10 he should have 21 (Max first level + 2*5,5).

Using the Living Greyhawk (LGH) method, he should have 22 (max first level, +2*((HD/2)+1).

And what is the Ogre using to calculate HD? is that a single d10 + 1 for Con? That is laughable.

As a third level character, that Ogre monster is going to have fewer hp than the mage... and it is expected to be up the front! The average 3rd level mage has 9 hp +Con bonus (4+2*2,5), and if you are using LGH, 10 hp, EXCLUDING Con, which is something a mage very rarely does.

Now, how this looks at a later stage of the game, I'll leave unsaid, as the book has yet to arrive on these dark and distant shores.

 

[Golandrinel]

Sorry, joining this a bit late...

+ 6 on strength!!! That's massive! Even Darksun Half-GIANTs (in 2e) only got a +4 strength modifier.

 

[Zarrock God of Evil]

Sorry, joining this a bit late...

+ 6 on strength!!! That's massive! Even Darksun Half-GIANTs (in 2e) only got a +4 strength modifier.

You cannot compare 2E bonuses to 3E bonuses and expect the comparison to make sense. DS Half-giants would probably gain +8 in 3E (since most ability bonuses have doubled to better acommodate the new system)

-Zarrock

 

[buzzard]

The AC of the human is 21 (full plate armor, large steel shield, 12-13 dex). The Ogre has an AC of 23 (full plate armor, large steel shield, +4 nat armor, 10-11 dex. Note that it would be one higher if the player had the brains to put a 14-15 into their dex before racial adjustments, -1 size).

How, pray tell, is a 1st level 1/2 ogre going to afford plate armor? Large size plate armor is expensive, and he is 1st level. I doubt he could afford banded even. Maybe a chain shirt if he started with max money. Try that in your calculations.

Assume 28 point buy (Living Greyhawk style)
Human Fgtr 3: AC 22(23)
str:16
dex:14
con:14
int:12
wis:10
chr:8

at 3rd level 4 feats. HP = 28
weapon focus
dodge
power attack
cleave
BAB 3
Will have a masterwork longsword by then.
+8 to hit.
1d8 +3
he could give up his shield and do:
masterwork greatsword +8, 2d6 +4 (possible power attack for +7 2d6 +5)

1/2 Ogre Fgtr 1: AC 19(large chain shirt, large steel shield)
Str 22
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 10
Chr 6

HP: 13
2 feats: weapon focus, power attack
BAB 1
Normal greatsword
+7 2d6+6

The 3rd level fighter would probably smack that punk around.

Ogre hits the human on a 16+
Human hits ogre on an 11+

Ogre needs 3 hits to kill human. Human needs 2 hits to kill ogre.

Who do you think will win?

buzzard [edit in the forgotten feat for ogre]

 

[Andor]

A subtle thing..

Another thing to notice about the Half-Ogre fighter is the -2 to dex and Int are likely to drop one or both of the stats below 13, unless you have a very generous point buy or a really lucky player.

IE: A Half-Ogre fighter is going to lose access to either or both of the Dodge and Expertise feat chains. No Spring attack, No disarm, No Whirlwind attack.

Also note that a 1st level Half-Ogre is going to be 12 skill points as well as two or three feats (depending on class) behind his 3rd level human buddy.

-Andor

 

[Forrester]

I'm pretty sure that a half-ogre/Fighter1 starts with as much gold as a 3rd level fighter, as they are both ECL3.

So the ogre can probably afford full plate. Even if he can't at 3rd level, he can at 4th. This is really a strawman.

Compare a half-ogre/Fighter4 to a human/Fighter6. I dare you. I double-dare you . I bet that they're damn close to even . . .

 

[Storminator]

I'm pretty sure that a half-ogre/Fighter1 starts with as much gold as a 3rd level fighter, as they are both ECL3.

So the ogre can probably afford full plate. Even if he can't at 3rd level, he can at 4th. This is really a strawman.

Compare a half-ogre/Fighter4 to a human/Fighter6. I dare you. I double-dare you . I bet that they're damn close to even . . .

He can't afford full plate at 3rd. He can at 4th, but the fighter can get Full plate and a +1 shield for less than the 1/2 orge's full plate. So the +4 natural armor in this case buys you +1 AC, which is negated by the -1 for large size.

But even if the 1/2 ogre is a match for fighter, he should get a slight reduction in the ECL because he can't play much else. Want to compare human Sorcerer 3 to Half ogre Sor 1? Human cleric 3 to half ogre Clr 1? Rogue? Bard?

It's only close for a melee fighter. For all else it's abysmal.

PS

 

[buzzard]

I'm pretty sure that a half-ogre/Fighter1 starts with as much gold as a 3rd level fighter, as they are both ECL3.

So the ogre can probably afford full plate. Even if he can't at 3rd level, he can at 4th. This is really a strawman.

Compare a half-ogre/Fighter4 to a human/Fighter6. I dare you. I double-dare you . I bet that they're damn close to even . . .

At any point the human fighter will have more hit points, more feats, and more skills. In a toe to toe, the half ogre might have a chance, but will be comparatively lacking in versatility. This does not even take into account the fact that the 1/2 ogre is ONLY good as a warrior and worthless in other classes.

I really don't think the 1/2 ogre is good enough to merit +2 level adjustment. It is the high end of one, but I still think it is one.

As for the starting gold- it is defined anywhere that ECL defines gold or class level defines starting gold?

buzzard

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

At any point the human fighter will have more hit points, more feats, and more skills. In a toe to toe, the half ogre might have a chance, but will be comparatively lacking in versatility. This does not even take into account the fact that the 1/2 ogre is ONLY good as a warrior and worthless in other classes.

I really don't think the 1/2 ogre is good enough to merit +2 level adjustment. It is the high end of one, but I still think it is one.

As for the starting gold- it is defined anywhere that ECL defines gold or class level defines starting gold?

buzzard

I don't know. I want to play a half-ogre bard so bad it hurts . Seriously.

But I am firmly in the camp of the half-ogre at ECL 1. As buzzard illustrated a 1st level half-ogre fighter will very liekly be beaten by a third level human fighter. In addition they lack the versatility of other races which is a very improtant part of the whole picture. An ECL should not be based on combat ability alone but should be derived from how well the race could operate as a player character in a larger sense. With all factors considered I think WOTC made a good choice at putting the half-ogre at ECL 1, I know that's the way it will be in my campaign.

Dirge

 

[satori01]

The fighter vs 1/2 ogre analysis is flawed as well since it merely tries to create a fighter of nondescript race that will do as well as a 1/2 ogre in the brute str dept. A Fighter of 2(or 3)level with different feats,(spring attack), a rogue with bluff and spring attack, a barbarian with rage and pwr attck, archers etc will yield different results, probably not favorable to the 1/2 Ogre.

An 1/2 ogre is an ideal brute combat machine, trying to go toe to toe with one will always schew the results as you are attacking its focal point.

The analysis did not factor in: different player monies, (why would a 2 level character have full plate=to a 3 level character, 3 level character would have masterwork of +1 weapon, which combined with power attack and cleave can reduce damage odds), the fact that large equipment costs more much more, racial abillities ie if the sample fighter was a dwarf that 1/2 ogre might be in trouble since now his opponent has more,(a lot more hp) and higher ac, make that a dwarf ranger with giants as his favoured enemy and the example looks bleaker.

A 1/2 ogre also is the same as everyone else when it comes to spells. The charm spells might be an exception, but we must remember that this 1/2 ogre write up is 3.5 , and every other PC race immune to charm has been explicitly stated in their race write up, personally I would rule 0 the size exception for charms.